Building resilience and determination

Peter Jackson (00:08): When was the last time you had a 3:00 AM conversation? I’m talking about those times when you’ve doubted yourself in the middle of the night. I’m Peter Jackson and in my time as the CEO of international law firm Hill Dickinson, I’ve had a fair few of those moments myself, and as a coach and mentor, I’ve guided many people through them. In this podcast, you’ll hear from high achievers about their own 3:00 AM conversations, and you’ll be able to apply their insights to your own life

(00:40): Now, when it comes to getting over life’s setbacks, I can’t think of anyone better to speak to than Andy Grant. Andy has come through more than most. After losing his mum, aged only 12, he left Bootle and became a Royal Marine commando. He served in Iraq and Afghanistan and was on foot patrol in Afghanistan when he was blown up by an improvised explosive device.

(01:05): Andy survived, despite suffering catastrophic injuries, and was flown back to the UK where he spent many months in rehab. The medics were able to save his right leg, but after further setbacks in his recovery, Andy took the decision himself to have the leg amputated. But having made this decision, he then continued his recovery and went on to win two golds in the Invictus Games. And after that, beat the world record for the 10,000 metres as an amputee. Andy is now an accomplished motivational speaker and podcaster, an ambassador for both charities and businesses. And we spoke to Andy at Gino D’Acampo’s Sky Bar, which is just across the road from our Liverpool office and from where you can see a 360 degrees panorama of the city.

(01:57):Now, you’ll hear Andy’s story and his 3:00 AM conversations coming up, but first, let’s hear from my co-host Katie Austin. Katie’s a partner in our Liverpool office and advises clients on their succession planning. So, everything from inheritance tax to drafting your will or to powers of attorney. So, Katie, let’s find out a little bit about you. Tell me about a typical day for you at Hill Dickinson.

Katie Austin (02:23): Hi, Peter. Yeah, it’s great to be here co-hosting on this podcast. Private client’s a really people-facing area, so there’s no hiding away in a back office. But in between meetings, I can usually be found drafting documents, calculating tax computations, and I do my best to squeeze in a few coffees and lunches as well with clients and professional contacts.

Peter Jackson (02:42): So, how did you get into law?

Katie Austin (02:44): I’m not really sure how I got into law, as there’s never been a single lawyer in my family. I think someone just suggested it to me at some point during high school and it stuck. I don’t think I had any clue really what law firms were like until I was working in one several years later.

(02:56): I love the area of work that I do, which is private client work, because it’s so people-centred. I love getting to know clients, their families, their businesses. It’s a real privilege to be brought into someone’s inner circle.

Peter Jackson (03:08): Brilliant. So, have you ever had a 3:00 AM conversation?

Katie Austin (03:12): Well, I reckon my brain is probably at its most active around 3:00 AM. Funnily enough, one of my most common 3:00 AM conversations is one that I think Andy’s going to talk about. So, I’m not going to spoil that, but I look forward to debriefing with you after we’ve heard from him.

Peter Jackson (03:26): Okay, I’ll look forward to that. Now, we had a good chat with Andy about his life story before we got to his 3:00 AM conversations, and as you can imagine, there’s a lot to talk about there. So, what were you most looking forward to hearing about before you met him?

Katie Austin (03:42): I think for me, what struck me most about Andy when I was reading his book and listening to some of his podcast episodes is that he’s incredibly frank and honest about his experiences, and he opens up really easily about struggles that he’s had. So, I think for that reason, I think it’s going to be a really interesting chat with him.

Peter Jackson (03:58): Okay. And after you’ve heard our conversation with Andy Grant, Katie and I will share some of our takeaways and the things we’ve learned from our chat.

(04:12): So, it’s time now to hear from Andy Grant, who’s here with me and Katie in the Sky Bar in Old Hall Street in Liverpool, just as they set up for their lunchtime trade. Apart from the Hill Dickinson building, is there any building you particularly look out for when you’re looking out of the windows over your beer?

Andy Grant (04:27): I think the two cathedrals are obviously … I was lucky enough I got to abseil the cathedral-

Peter Jackson (04:33): Nice.

Andy Grant (04:33): … for the Owen McVeigh Foundation, who I’m an ambassador for. So, I always look to that. I think to have city with two great cathedrals, not many cities can say that, is there? Yeah, just feel really proud when I’m up here looking over it, and it’s great. Yeah.

Peter Jackson (04:45): It’s difficult to know where to start really, because given that you are in your mid-30s, 36-

Andy Grant (04:51): Yeah.

Peter Jackson (04:52): … you’ve packed such a lot into those first 36 years, but perhaps if we go back to your childhood, and I’ve heard you say on a number of occasions despite everything that happens to you later in life, in Afghanistan and what comes comes after that, the most devastating event was losing your mum when you were 12. Can you tell us a bit about that

Andy Grant (05:14): God, I think I cried about me mum last week, do you know?

Peter Jackson (05:15): Right.

Andy Grant (05:19): I’m 36 now, and it still bothers me now I think. And in a weird way, if you can look at a positive around it, I think the one positive is, I don’t think I would’ve reacted as well as I have done if I hadn’t been through that hardship earlier on in my life. I think it made me a lot more resilient. It hardened me a lot. And again, I don’t think if I’d been blown up in Afghanistan again, would I have coped as well if I hadn’t learned to be tough and hard?

(05:43): I was a real mummy’s boy. I told my mum I loved her a million times a day. Even if I was going the corner shop, I’d say, “Mum, love you.” And me dad would be going, “Bloody hell, you know you’re only going the shop. You’ll be back in two minutes.” So, real mummy’s boy. And I had two younger sisters as well. So, losing her when she was only 36. And actually, it’s had an impact on me turning 36 because I remember looking at my mum thinking, “God, I never want to be old and potentially die.” And then, I’m 36 now and I still feel like I’m 21. So, it was really tough going through that, having to grow up a lot earlier than I probably wanted to or should have. And then, it probably had an impact on me joining the Marines as well.

Peter Jackson (06:20): I was going to say, was that one of the reasons … Might’ve been one of the reasons you joined the Marines?

Andy Grant (06:24): Yeah. I definitely think I’ve wanted to feel part of a family. I’m not saying my dad and my sisters didn’t feel like a family, of course they did. But I think that having that togetherness and that kind of feeling again, and it was something a bit different, the challenges and stuff like that. But yeah, I think losing my mum at 12 was by far the hardest thing I’ve ever had to go through, without doubt.

Peter Jackson (06:43): Okay. Well, let’s move forward a bit then in your 30-second bio. And the day that you were subject to the explosion, again, I’ve heard you say you can remember pretty much everything that happened that day. Just talk us through it very briefly, if you don’t mind.

Andy Grant (06:59): Yeah. So, I’d been in Afghanistan five months. I had about six weeks left before I was due home. It was a routine foot patrol, one that we’d done hundreds of times before. The idea on this particular morning was to go out in the pitch black, four, five o’clock in the morning, get ourselves basically on the enemy’s doorstep, and then when it turned first light, the idea was we’d be there to surprise them.

(07:20): As we were patrolling out, my best mate, Ian, was leading the way. I was the second man. And as he’s jumped over an irrigation ditch, it’s been pitch black, so impossible to see, but there was a tripwire on the other side of the ditch in between two trees. So, as he’s jumped and I’m getting ready to jump, he’s hit the wire. Two bombs went off in between us, blowing him forward, blowing me back.

(07:41): I suffered 27 separate injuries at the time, shrapnel to my face, a broken elbow, broken sternum, got chunks missing, you can see on both forearms. Severed my femoral artery, which is the thing that nearly killed me. As they say, you can bleed to death within six minutes. Huge chunk out of my left leg. And I broke both lower legs. And now I’ve severe nerve damage, both hands, both feet.

(08:03): But yeah, I remember it all perfect. I remember the 30 seconds or so thinking, “Wow, I’ve been blown up.” And then, I always divide it up into three parts. I think the first 10 minutes was a lot of shock. I was screaming and shouting and the guys were calming me down. The next 10 minutes was a lot of pain. That’s when the pain kicked in and I knew something was seriously wrong with my right leg. And then, the last 10 minutes was just quite calm. Obviously, I’d lost a lot of blood. I was feeling quite tired, quite sleepy. And the guys were doing everything they could to keep me alive and, “Come on, Andy, keep talking to us.” And then, that’s when the helicopter came in and picked me up, and I don’t really remember much from then. I was in a coma for two weeks. And the next thing I remember was waking up back in the UK in intensive care with my dad sitting next to me.

Peter Jackson (08:49): You mentioned there how your mates were keeping you going. Talk about what the team did for you during that period, because they very much kept you alive, didn’t they?

Andy Grant (08:59): Yeah. I mean, if it wasn’t for a guy, James Smith, he was an army medic, he was attached to us, he placed the tourniquet on my groin pretty much straight away. And when I woke up in the UK, that’s the first thing they said to me, “The guy who placed the tourniquet on your leg, you owe him a beer because you wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for him.

(09:15): And it was that, it was such a team effort. From him doing that to the helicopters then coming out to get me, the Apache helicopters who were the kind of support, the guys on the Chinook, the nurses, the doctors, the surgeons, all the guys on the ground. And when I do the motivational speaking, I always talk about the team, because whether it was the guy in Birmingham Airport who was holding up those things when you land in the airport, or whether it was the guy putting the tourniquet on. If not everyone had done their job to the best of their ability and gave a hundred percent, then seconds would’ve been lost, minutes would’ve been lost, hours would’ve been lost, and I wouldn’t be sitting here now sharing my story. So, it was very much about the team that kept me alive that day.

Peter Jackson (09:55): And I’ve heard your great mate, Doc Lambert, talk about it as well. And he talks about being the last cog in the chain, if that’s the right way to put it.

Andy Grant (10:03): Yeah. Yeah.

Peter Jackson (10:05): When he does the operation and eventually amputates your leg.

Andy Grant (10:09): Yeah. So, I mean, everyone done an amazing job to keep me alive. And for me, the recovery got to a certain point, I actually think Doc uses the analogy of, “Life at snail’s pace wasn’t for him.” Because I was okay, I mean, I could walk about and I could live a normal life, but obviously I’ve been in the Marines, I’d love to travel, I loved action adventure, and I just wasn’t going to get that type of quality of life with the injury.

(10:30): So, I chose to go and see Doc Lambert who then amputated my leg, and that’s where the famous, the you’ll never walk story came from. So, I did have a liver bird tattoo with, “You’ll never walk alone.” After his handiwork, it now says, “You’ll never walk.” Which is a true story. No one actually ever believes me, but him. That was the last major operation I had. And that was, in a way, put to bed the kind of injury, if you like, and enabled me to then start getting on with my life.

Peter Jackson (10:56): Right.

Katie Austin (10:57): So, of your injuries, at what point did you become aware of the extent of them in hospital? I think you mentioned when the surgeon came and spoke to you, when you were kind of first aware of what had happened and delivered some devastating news.

Andy Grant (11:10): Yeah. So, at the time when I woken up, my right leg obviously was still there, but it was really badly damaged. So, the idea was just to not really tell me the full extent of my injuries until I was kind of out the woods and my leg was okay. And a few days having been woken up, I remember just assuming everything else was okay. And that’s when I got told that I’d actually lost both testicles in the blast, and straight away, I knew that would be me not being able to have children. I always had visions of one day meeting a girl, getting married, buying a big house. And 20 years of age being told, “Actually, you’re not going to be able to be a dad.” There was literally nothing you could do. It was-

Katie Austin (11:50): Yeah. No solution, it’s just that it happened.

Andy Grant (11:52): There’s no solution, it was just, “Look, this is unfortunate. You will not be able to have kids biologically.” And it was devastating. Yeah. That was definitely the hardest thing. And I didn’t tell anyone for a long time, but then once I wrote a book years later, I felt like I had a skeleton in me closet or something, and I’m not embarrassed about it or anything like that. So yeah, it was a big relief. I think once I started talking about it, I actually felt it was just one of those things. But at the time, as you can imagine, it was just devastating.

Peter Jackson (12:16): You made the decision yourself to have the amputation. What was the thinking behind that?

Andy Grant (12:23): To be honest, I was around a lot of lads in the rehab centre who had no legs, one leg, one arm, two legs missing and an arm, and they were living a better quality life than I was. And there’s me limping around with this leg that didn’t really work, but it was okay. And then, I was looking at mates who were climbing mountains, going to the Paralympics, learning to cycle. I was just like, “Oh, there’s got to be more to life than me walking around with a walking stick.”

(12:48): The other big thing was I didn’t know from one day to the next what I’d be like. One day I’d wake up and I’d think, “You know what? Who cares if I can’t run? It’s not that bad.” And then, the next day I’d be bedridden and it’d be so sore, and I couldn’t really plan my life because I didn’t know what state my body was going to be in. Whereas, once I had the leg amputated, it was like, that’s it, now I can really crack on with my life. And I think it was just a mix of seeing other people and being inspired by them, but then also just wanting to put an end to this and really move on.

Peter Jackson (13:19): Great. Well, move on you did. And tell us about the Invictus Games. Because you didn’t necessarily think you were going to take that seriously to start with. I think in your book the chapter’s called The Egg and Spoon Race, isn’t it?

Andy Grant (13:34): Yeah. I mean, I hope don’t offend anyone when I can speak like this, but you’ve got to imagine the Marines, it’s all that dark humour, gallows humour. And so, during the rehab centre, we’re just a bunch of, I don’t even know what words you’re allowed to say on this podcast or what’s PC anymore type thing, but-

Peter Jackson (13:50): Feel free.

Andy Grant (13:51): We were just all a bunch of cripples in this rehab centre, with no arms and no legs and thinking, who’s going to pay to come and watch us run around the track? It’d be a comedy sketch, if anything. So, I don’t think anyone really took it serious. And then, obviously, a few big names start getting involved and Prince Harry gets involved, and you meet him. And then the whole world media is there and you think, “Actually, this is going to be quite cool.” And obviously take part in it. And then when you’re in London and you see everyone, it felt amazing to see the country almost say, “We’re grateful for what you’ve done for the country.” And I don’t think we’re great at that in the UK, it’s just not our culture.

Peter Jackson (14:29): No.

Andy Grant (14:29): But I think that was a time where people could come out and actually say, “Wow, thanks for your service.” But then once then guys, realised, this was actually quite competitive, guys were then training properly, and then it became like a little mini-Olympics, which was amazing.

(14:42): And then, I was lucky enough to win a couple of gold medals in the 1,500 and the 400, and a bronze in the relay. And it was just a brilliant thing to be part of. You actually felt like a superstar. You were on TV and people were asking for autographs and selfies. It was really cool and an amazing thing, which really then springboarded me onto other things.

Peter Jackson (15:00): Yeah, because you then did take you running very seriously, didn’t you? And became the world record holder for the 10,000 metres.

Andy Grant (15:07): Yeah, the plan originally was to go on to the Paralympics. I thought that would be the next goal, but unfortunately for me, the longest distance for someone with my injury is just 400 metres. And some of those guys are ridiculously quick, and I’m more of a long distance runner. But I thought, there’s got to be other amputees around the world who like running longer distances.

(15:24): So, I’ve done a bit of googling and I’ve found out there was a guy called Rick Ball who lost his leg in a car accident. He was from Canada. And he’d ran 10K in 37 minutes and 53 seconds. So, I switched focus from the Paralympics then to this 10K record. And then, that’s when I was doing the whole … I was writing 37:53 in my garage and it was like looking at this number every day. And then, that’s when I real took things seriously, I took things to the next level and broke the record by 36 seconds. But for me, the greatest bit about it was I’d put the whole injured soldier card to bed, no one can ever feel sorry for me now. Let’s go for a run and then we can feel sorry for each other if you want, but don’t ever look at me as if you feel sorry for me no more.

(16:06): And I think once I broke that record and I was running a fast time, I had all my colleagues I was in the Marines with, some of them had gone on to Special Forces, and they were messaging me saying, “God, Andy, you’re fitter than me.” So, to me, it wasn’t the fact I’m the fastest disabled man, it was the fact that I’m back to being old Andy again. I was just like a normal Marine again.

Peter Jackson (16:24): We’ll get onto your 3:00 AM conversations in a minute, but one final question. Your book, you’ve mentioned it, You’ll Never Walk, nominated for sports book of the year. Who were you up against? Because there was some big names.

Andy Grant (16:37): I think Tiger Woods had one going in, I think Lance Armstrong or something book. So, was what was really funny about that was my best mate, Phil Reade, was the one who ghost wrote it for me. And obviously, his dad, Brian Reade, know really well, and I think Brian’s wrote a few books but never quite been long-listed, and it was his son’s first book and he did get lon- listed. So, I think that created a bit of family banter, but it was probably the proudest thing I’ve done, writing the book, because like I said, I was able to just tell my story and I think it’s probably where I get most feedback now. People have read it and it’s helped them through a tough time, and it’s something hopefully I can look back on in years to come and probably read it and think, “God, that was my life.” Because it all seems like such a long time ago now.

Katie Austin (17:16): Yeah.

Peter Jackson (17:17): Definitely one for the grandchildren.

Andy Grant (17:18): Yeah.

Peter Jackson (17:18): In due course. In due course. Well, let’s move on to your 3:00 AM conversations then. And I actually reread the book before we met today, and I was wondering which three you were going to restrict yourself to, because a number of occasions throughout the whole story you described lying awake at night worrying about your mom being in Afghanistan, the first time you went out in a firefight and all of those things. But you actually picked three after the amputation, and the first one you picked was regret, the conversations you had with yourself about that. Tell me about that.

Andy Grant (17:57): Just think maybe, I don’t know, I’ve got older and stuff and you look back on this, and I know everyone makes mistakes in life and regrets and stuff, but just certain things that you wish you would’ve done different and maybe you’ve hurt people in the past or things haven’t quite worked out the way you wanted, and just sadness and regret really of just things that have happened. And I think I’m prone to let that play in me mind, which annoys me because I talk in me motivational speaking about living in the moment and not dwelling too much in the past. And here I am in the middle of the night, thinking about past mistakes and past regrets. So, I just think it’s something I need to try and get better at really.

Peter Jackson (18:31): Do you not think the fact that you accept that you’ve made those mistakes, that there was a period where it went wild a bit, as you describe it, adds credibility to you as a motivational speaker, gives a degree of reality about you?

Andy Grant (18:45): Yeah, no, it does. Yeah. I think it’s just at those kind of moments in the night though, when you think … I do give myself a little bit of a pass sometimes, thinking that I went through a lot, you were obviously going to make mistakes and potentially the wheels potentially could come off. But then I look back now, it’s like that old saying, age is wasted on the young, or youth is wasted on the young, or something there. And I just think, yeah, I struggle sometimes with some regrets.

(19:11): Obviously, I went through some challenges and I picked up a bit of a gambling addiction at one point. And I look back at that time and I was young, gambling, being irresponsible. And now I’m 36, I’ve got a little girl now and I think, “God, what I could have spent that money on now and what I could have done here and what I could have done there.” But then on the other hand I think, “Well, you did go through a lot and it wasn’t always going to be perfect and straightforward.” But then I think, “I know, but if you were just a little bit more sensible and you were a little bit more…” They’re just regrets like that really. I think they kind of just eat me up a little bit.

Peter Jackson (19:42): Yeah. I’m bound to ask you, what was going through your mind when you blew 10 grand on Boxing Day and you bet on Liverpool to win at Stoke?

Andy Grant (19:49): Yeah, some of them were really bad. Do you know what it was? I think it was just an escape I was looking for. My life was so crazy, if you like, in the Marines. And I loved it. It was brilliant. And then, I found myself in a position where the little bit of compensation I’d got from the government, I was able to just get meself on the property ladder. So, I was mortgage free. I had a pension coming in. I was doing these motivational talks, getting paid a lot of money considering what I was getting paid in the Marines.

(20:21): So, I just felt a little bit like a rock star almost, if you like, financially, which was ridiculous to think, but I’m only in me mid-20s and stuff, and it just didn’t seem real. And then, I’d go for a beer and then obviously once you’ve had a drink, your mindset is a bit skewed anyway. And the 20 quids kind of bet didn’t excite me anymore. So, then it turned to 50 pound, 500 pound, and then into the thousands. And then, it was just … You know when people talk about life, everything was just crumbling down? It kind of felt like that. Drinking too much, gambling too much, and it was just a crazy time. And that they’re the kind of times I look back and regret now and think, “God, how stupid were you?” Do you know what I mean?

Peter Jackson (21:00): Do you think you lost a bit of purpose during that period?

Andy Grant (21:03): A hundred percent. I think I’m still searching for it now, to be honest, as well. I still have me days now where think … I think it’s just because growing up in Bootle, you look around at stuff and people you know, your friends, family and stuff, and I think the goal was to get a job and then at 60 you’ll retire, you’d be able to pay off your mortgage, and then that’s it. I kind of had that at 25. So, it was like, right, well, everyone around me in Bootle had this kind of goal and this dream. Well, I’ve done that at 25, so what do I do now? Where’s my purpose? And then, that’s when it’s like, okay, well maybe I’ll go off here, I’ll go and try this, I’ll do that. And I think that’s where it stemmed from a hundred percent.

Peter Jackson (21:40): So, let’s move on to your second 3:00 AM conversation, which is a combination of comparing yourself to other people or worrying about your life’s purpose. So, tell me about that.

Andy Grant (21:51): I guess it’s just kind of knowing where to fit in really, because I’ve got a lot of friends who are super successful, very wealthy people, and I look at them all the time and they’re getting up at 5:00 AM and they’re doing their emails. And you’re having a conversation with them and sometimes they’re not in the room, because they’re just thinking of the next business deal, the next that. And I think, you know what? God, I need to really start upping my game. I need to be at least trying to get to where they are and get that same success. And then, oh do I think, no, listen, just calm down and just-

Peter Jackson (22:18): Let me ask you some questions then. One word answer. Okay? Do you think you add value with what you do, motivational speaking, your ambassador roles?

Andy Grant (22:26): Yeah.

Peter Jackson (22:26): Do those roles fulfil you?

Andy Grant (22:28): Yeah.

Peter Jackson (22:29): You’re financially secure, you’ve said you’ve got that covered for what you need.

Andy Grant (22:33): Yeah.

Peter Jackson (22:34): Are you happy?

Andy Grant (22:36): Yeah.

Peter Jackson (22:37): You’ve cracked it, lad. Don’t worry about that. Don’t worry about it. Katie?

Katie Austin (22:41): Yeah, I think sometimes we get a bit bogged down, don’t we, with what productivity is? And whether it is just about, is it emails at 5:00 AM? Is it going for a run at 5:00 AM? Is it catching up on sleep if you’ve been up with a baby at 5:00 AM? It means different things to different people, doesn’t it? And I think God, particularly as lawyers, I think we are measured by productivity, as are many, many people. And you can get really bogged down with it, but actually, productive means totally different things, doesn’t it, in different scenarios?

Andy Grant (23:09): Massively, yeah. And I think it’s a bit of a taboo subject talking about money and stuff, but I think, how much money do you need? I kind of live my life. I do what I want when I want, within reason. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not drinking pina coladas every day on the beach or jetting off first class anywhere. I’m not doing anything like that. But for what I want to do, I’m perfectly cool with that.

(23:30): So, it just poses that question. I think where I kind of kick myself a little bit is that productivity. Do you know, it’s like, okay, yeah, I’m fortunate I can do what I want when I want, but why don’t I learn a language? Why aren’t I in the gym more? Why aren’t I using my time a bit wisely? I think that’s where maybe a little bit of unhappiness comes from. It’s like, I could do more with me time, I could be better and improving meself a little bit more rather, do you know what I mean?

Katie Austin (23:57): You’re like an ultra-high achieving personality type, aren’t you? So, I think that makes it difficult.

Andy Grant (24:01): That’s the thing. And it doesn’t really excite me doing something a little bit. I can’t just go and do something. I need to-

Katie Austin (24:07): Yeah. To really so it.

Andy Grant (24:08): If I’m doing something, I want to do it. And then, that takes a lot of planning, so you can kind of then not start it. So, you need to get into a bit more of a routine of just getting stuff done and trying to improve in it in any way you can. And I think that’s where, again, me purpose, me productivity could be a bit better, and I probably shouldn’t try and fit into these really super-high achievers multimillionaires.

Katie Austin (24:27): So, Andy, let’s get onto your final 3:00 AM conversation. And this one was about your daughter, about being a father. So, after being told at 20 that you wouldn’t be able to have children, you were able to have a baby in 2014. How did it feel when you first held her in your arms?

Andy Grant (24:46): I think the heartbreak of being 20 years of age and told you can’t be a dad, and then five or six years later, have this little miracle in your arms. I just burst out crying. Heard her cry for the first time set me off crying. And just the greatest feeling in the world. And I think being a dad and seeing this little person grow is just, I’d say, the best job in the world. And I feel so lucky. And I think that one moment of holding her just made it all seem worthwhile. Getting blown up in Afghanistan was worth it just for that moment.

Katie Austin (25:18): And you’ve got a good relationship with your own dad.

Andy Grant (25:20): Mm-hmm.

Katie Austin (25:21): How do you think you are like him as a father, and in what ways are you different?

Andy Grant (25:27): I think I’m a lot more affectionate. He’s very old school. Like I said, I told my mum I loved her a million times a day. With my dad, it’s very much like you’re all right, none of that kind of talk. With Alba, I’m telling her I love her a million times a day, hugging her every time I see her. So, I’m very hands-on in that kind of sense. But I’m similar to me dad in the sense that we have a good laugh. I think I confide in my dad quite a lot, and I think Alba does to me. So, different and similar in ways. Yeah.

Katie Austin (25:56): Yeah. And you mentioned before, at the start, I think when you were telling your story at the beginning, this idea that you losing your mum made you the resilient person that you became when you were in the Marines. And I think as a parent everybody battles with, “Okay, how do we raise resilient kids but without traumatising them?” Is that something that you think about with Alba?

Andy Grant (26:19): Yeah. So, the other 2:00, 3:00 AM thoughts are just how to be a good dad in every area really. I, like I say, grew up in Bootle and loved me childhood, absolutely loved every minute of it, but it’s only when you get older you realise that we didn’t have a lot. I mean, didn’t need a lot, but didn’t really have a lot. And it’s only when you leave Bootle and you think, “God, Bootle’s actually quite a deprived area.” And it’s, as you know, again, it’s my home and I love it, but you think, “Well, I want better for my children.”

(26:47): So, it’s getting that balance of, I want Alba to grow up with that grit and determination that I think most people in Bootle have got. But then, also, I don’t want to have to put her through all the things I had to go through. So, it’s hard. How do you mix that in? And you think, even education, you think, “Do I put her in a school that I went to, or do I maybe work a bit harder and maybe get her into a private school?” But then you think, “Is that what’s best for her in that sense?”

(27:10): And I’m thinking, I want to toughen her up, but I don’t want anything to happen to her. And just that constant battle of just trying to do right by her, do the right thing. And I think that’s the thing that I struggle with of not knowing the best way to do it really.

Katie Austin (27:26): Yeah.

Peter Jackson (27:27): If it’s any comfort, it doesn’t get any easier the older they get.

Andy Grant (27:31): Do you know what? And it breaks me heart. Like I say, we’re so close and she’s nine. And then, it really annoys me when everyone says, “Oh, you’ve only got that for a few more years and she’s going to go off.” And I’m like, I hope not, because we’re such best friends now. And yeah, it makes me so sad to think that she’s going to go off one day, because I want to raise her so that when she’s 18, 19, 20, she’ll go travelling and see the world. I’d love for her to do that. But then, it also break me heart as well, having to say goodbye to her. So, I’ve got a real mixed feelings on being a dad and what it means and what success is as a dad.

Katie Austin (28:08): Has it made you look back and realise what your dad must have been going through when you were joining the Marines and going to Iraq?

Andy Grant (28:14): Yeah, I mean, I couldn’t even imagine having me daughter being in the military. I couldn’t do that. I mean, I’m bloody besides meself when I’ve not seen her for a few hours. So, I don’t know how he coped. But again, it’s that thing, I’m sure he was super proud, and he’d done a good job when I left home at 17 to join the Marines. And I’m sure I’ll be proud when Alba goes and does her thing. But then at the same time, it is going to break my heart.

(28:38): And I do look back and I think, God, me poor dad sitting there when I was in hospital, for example, when I’m in a coma and he’s sitting there watching me, it must’ve been so tough for him and I appreciate now just everything that he’d done for me. And like I say, that’s probably why we’re so close as well. And hopefully then, me and Alba will continue to be close as well.

Katie Austin (28:55): Yeah.

Peter Jackson (28:56): You sit here today, accomplished motivational speaker, podcaster, ambassador for businesses and charities. Throw your mind back to when you were in the hospital bed in Selly Oak and whatever. How did you cope? What messages would you give to people who are in that type of situation, really struggling with either mental or physical issues?

Andy Grant (29:22): I think the three things I’d hone in on is, I don’t think we actually realise just how resilient and strong we are. Again, it annoys me when people say, “This has never happened to me. I don’t know how you’ve coped. I could never have done it meself.” And me response is always the same. I say, “You would’ve and you could’ve.” Because I think we surprise ourselves at how strong we are. So, you’ve got to kind of give yourself a bit of a pat on the back, I think, when you are going through something tough and actually back yourself, because we’ve all been through tough times in life. So, I always try and remember tough times I’ve been through. Then I look at how I’ve overcome that, and then that thing gives me confidence in dealing with whatever I’m going through right now.

(29:58): So, at the time when I was in hospital, I thought, “Right. This is going to be tough, but it’s going to be a lot easier than losing me mum at 12. And I got through that okay.” I was like, “This time, I’ve got all these amazing doctors and nurses to help me. It’s going to be okay.” So, number one, I think, remind yourself of how strong you are. I think that will always help. I think two, is your surroundings. You’ve got to surround yourself by good people, by positive people. And when I was in the hospital bed, they had been blown to bits. There was a guy in the bed opposite me who’d lost both his legs. He’s making me smile, then the next day when he’s a bit down, I’m making him smile. There was just so much positivity I was around, which was just unbelievable. And I think it was hard to feel sorry for yourself and be down for too long when you had just amazing friends and family and support. So, number two, I’d say, remind yourself … Sorry, surround yourself by those positive people.

(30:47): And the third thing is just, it sounds a bit cheesy, but just set small goals and don’t try and get there too quick. Almost enjoy the journey of coming out of this dark place. I never once thought I’m going to be a motivational speaker and break world records. I remember literally wanting to be able to walk from my house to the corner shop, buy the paper and come back and read the back pages without being in pain. That was my goal in life, to just be able to do that, walk the dog to the shop, come back, read the paper and have a cup of tea. Then, obviously, you do that and you think, “You know what? I’ll run the shop. And then, actually, you know what? I’m going to run here.” And the goals then change. So, just set small goals that are going to get you out of this dark place and then build on it from there.

(31:30): So yeah, remind yourself how strong you are, surround yourself by good people, and then, set those small goals that are going to get you to the big one.

Peter Jackson (31:37): Excellent advice. Final question. I’ve heard you say, and I think you mentioned it earlier, “Focus 10% on what’s in front of you and 90% in the future.” If what we’ve seen from Andy Grant in 36 years is 10%, what the hell does the 90% next look like? What’s next for you?

Andy Grant (31:55): No idea. I mean, again, as much as I have accomplished and I feel really proud of myself, there is definitely that bit of me that is still searching for a purpose. I think some of the coolest people I know are in their 40s, 50s, and 60s, and still don’t know what they want to do with their life. And I’m a little bit like that. I feel really happy that I am, but who knows what’s going to happen in the future? I think a lot more challenges. I’d like to really push myself and do various things. I’d love to one day row across the Atlantic Ocean with Ian, the guy I got blown up with. I think that’d be pretty cool. I’d love to climb a few more mountains around the world. I love being in the mountains.

(32:28): And to see the world. I love going on holiday. Obviously, when me daughter gets a bit bigger as well, taking her to these places around the world. And just enjoy life. Again, another cheesy quote about that, I think it was … Was it John Lennon? When the teacher said about being happy or something, or what’s the meaning of happiness or something, or life, and he said to be happy or something, and he said, you don’t understand the question or something. I just love being happy. I love just having a good time. I love being with friends and family and enjoying myself. And if I can just keep on enjoying myself, then … I think, like you said before, we put so much pressure on, you’ve got to do this and do that. And I just want to be happy. I just want to be with me mates, with me friends, me family, and have a beer in my hand and the sun in the sky. And honestly, I’d be all right with that.

Peter Jackson (33:15): You’ve earned that, mate, if I may say so. Andy, thanks very much for your time today.

Katie Austin (33:19): Thanks.

Peter Jackson (33:19): Thanks for coming in and being so open.

Andy Grant (33:21): Thanks for having me. Yeah.

Peter Jackson (33:22): And hopefully, the listeners will really take something out of what we’ve said. Thank you very much indeed.

Andy Grant (33:26): Oh, cheers. Thanks very much.

Peter Jackson (33:33): What a story, Katie. So, what did you make of that?

Katie Austin (33:36): It’s just unbelievable, isn’t it? It’s unbelievable how much he went through in 10, 15 years. Losing his mum at 12, joining the Marines at 18, Afghanistan at 20, blown up, having the surgery, even breaking that 10K record. Such a short space of time, so much has happened for him, hasn’t it?

Peter Jackson (33:53): Yeah. And I think we both agreed, didn’t we, that it was very difficult to know what to leave out? He’s done so much.

Katie Austin (34:01): Yeah.

Peter Jackson (34:02): And if anyone does want to know more about Andy, we’d thoroughly recommend his book You’ll Never Walk, or listening to his podcast, The Leg It Podcast. In particular, the episodes where he tells his own story. And then, in another episode he interviews the surgeon, Dr. Tony Lambert, who did the amputation. And both of them are fascinating. And you can find a link to Andy’s book You’ll Never Walk, and to The Leg It Podcast in the notes for this episode. Any other particular aspects of Andy’s 3:00 AM conversations that really resonated with you?

Katie Austin (34:36): I think, for me, it’s the comparison to others piece. So, this thing about people in the 5:00 AM club, the ultra-high achievers, and I just think if somebody like Andy Grant worries that they’ve not done enough with their life, that just goes to show how high we set the bar for ourselves and how we can be our own harshest critics. I mean, I’m terrible for doing that myself, to be honest. That’s my 3:00 AM conversation. And I think lots of us are. Is that something that you think as well, even in your position?

Peter Jackson (35:04): Yeah. And I don’t think that gets any easier. I mean, I was a leader for 20 years and I still was my greatest critic, as you say. I still suffered from imposter syndrome at the end and used to wake up wondering, “How did I ever get into this job?” But I think what does come with experience is that awareness that those you are leading want you to lead. They want you to do that job, and they rely on you. And whilst that gives you great feelings of responsibility and accountability, it does give you the confidence to take the roles on.

Katie Austin (35:43): Yeah. I mean, the other thing I love about Andy is I just love the way he talks about his daughter.

Peter Jackson (35:48): Yeah.

Katie Austin (35:49): He had this terrible piece of news in his early-20s before he’d even considered fatherhood, he was told that he couldn’t have children. And then, I think it’s just amazing, a few years later, he and his partner were able to have a baby using a sperm donor, and he could hold his baby in his arms. And I just love the way he talks about his daughter. He’s besotted with her. He does the school drop every day. And it’s just lovely to hear. Particularly as well, this is another thing about him worrying about his daughter and whether he’s a good enough dad. He’s clearly a fantastic dad, but I think that constant worry about your own children is something that will resonate with lots of people who are listening to this, because as you said to him, it just doesn’t get any easier the older they get.

Peter Jackson (36:27): It certainly doesn’t. The final piece I took away from it was the second point he made about relying on your team and surrounding yourself with good people. And it’s always been my mantra to do just that. It’s often said that leadership is a lonely position, and of course, at times it can be, but it doesn’t have to be. If you surround yourself internally in your own business or your team, or the organisation you’re leading, with people who are better at what they do than you are, then you’ve always got people around to take counsel from.

(37:08): And alongside that, if you build an external network of people you can turn to and bounce ideas off, when you are uncertain what decisions to take, then again, it gives you that additional layer of support. And I think Andy was absolutely spot on in having that of one of his top three tips in terms of how he copes with times of stress.

Katie Austin (37:31): Yeah. Yeah. Surround yourself by good people. It seems to be key, doesn’t it? You must have had loads of examples of using your network over your years in business.

Peter Jackson (37:42): It’s some years ago now, but we had two of our senior people in a particular part of the business had fallen out good style, and they really, really were struggling to be in the same room as each other. And both of them were crucial to that part of the business in their own way. And I tried everything to bring them together. I’d tried to mediate it, I’d tried to put my arm around both shoulders. I’d offered to take them out for dinner. I’d tried pretty much everything and I was at my wits end because it just wasn’t getting any better.

(38:15): So, I phoned up a pal of mine, a managing partner of another law firm, and said, “Look, off the record, I’ve got this issue. Two of my senior people are just not getting on. It’s getting quite difficult and I need to have them both on side. Does that ever happen to you?” And he said, “Oh no, obviously, of course that would never ever happen in our business, but if it did, I’d try speaking to one of these three people. I’d recommend number two, the lady. She’s very good, indeed.” And just the threat, when I went back to the two partners who were at each other’s throats, and said to them, “Look, I’m going to bring in some external advice here because this needs to be sorted.” That brought them to their senses. And I didn’t actually have to go and do it. But it was great advice and from someone I relied on externally, and I felt comfortable enough in speaking to him about a difficult problem, and he had no compulsion whatsoever in giving me a piece of advice that solved the issue.

(39:17): So, I think that’s a pretty good example of how surrounding yourself with people who can help is always a great course to follow.

Katie Austin (39:25): Absolutely.

Peter Jackson (39:27): So, thanks for listening to this episode of 3:00 AM Conversations, and you’ll hear from us again in a month’s time. But in the meantime, please rate, review, and follow us, and that way you’ll be able to spread the word. And if you’d like to find out more about Hill Dickinson, then head to our website, or follow us on LinkedIn, X, or Instagram. Thanks for listening and we’ll see you soon.