Building purposeful businesses

Peter Jackson (00:06): When was the last time you woke up in the middle of the night and thought, “What am I going to do about this? How will I solve that problem in work tomorrow?” Well, if you have had that experience, then you’ve had a 3:00 AM conversation. I’m Peter Jackson, as the former CEO of international law firm, Hill Dickinson, I’ve been there too. And 3:00 AM Conversations is a podcast that examines those moments in the cold light of day. And I think that’s useful, because once you realise that we all go through this and have these mind talks, it helps us to get closer to finding the solutions. In this podcast, I’ll introduce you to high achievers who can tell you about their own 3:00 AM conversations, and so you can apply their insights to your own life.

(00:54): Now in this episode, you will meet Lisa Morton, CEO and founder of Roland Dransfield, a multi-award-winning communications agency in Manchester. Lisa set up the business 28 years ago, shortly after an IRA bomb ripped through Manchester City Centre. She was then heavily involved in rebuilding the city, and I’m sure that experience had a hand in the name of her own award-winning podcast, We Built This City. And when it comes to business, for Lisa, it’s all about purpose, values, and legacy. You’ll find out more about that coming up shortly.

(01:32): First though, let me introduce you to my co-host for today, Anjon Mallik. Now, Anjon is a partner in Hill Dickinson’s Construction team and is based in Leeds, and he specialises in the resolution of disputes for main contractors, developers, and specialist subcontractors. So what’s a typical day like for you at Hill Dickinson, Anjon?

Anjon Mallik (01:52): Hi, Peter. Well, there’s probably no such thing as a typical day, but it’s always going to involve responding to the needs of our construction clients, making sure the team’s set up for the day ahead. There’ll be some actions to do on winning new business, maybe on recruitment. And then there’s the work we do on the multicultural side. So, there’s always lots to do, always some challenges, but always great fun.

Peter Jackson (02:16): How did you get into law?

Anjon Mallik (02:18): Well, for years growing up I’d come from a line of medics in my family and I was being told as a kid that I was going to become a doctor, and I just really wanted to do something standing on my own two feet. So, when I got to 16, I picked some A-levels, so that no one would ever ask me that question again, I picked English, German and maths. And did some work experience at a law firm, so law firm in Hull where I’m from, and I just really got a taste for it then. So, I was just determined to stand or fall really by my own efforts, and that’s taken me on a great journey, really.

Peter Jackson (02:52): Excellent. Well, you’ve certainly made it, but have you had a 3:00 AM conversation?

Anjon Mallik (02:57): Always. I think I’m probably one of the worst sleepers that I know. I think I’ve listened to a couple of episodes at 3:00 AM as well, so I’ll be interested to listen to this one when it comes out.

Peter Jackson (03:07): Great stuff. Okay, so let’s get on to our 3:00 AM Conversations.

(03:18): So, time now for you to hear from Lisa Morton. Now Lisa is the CEO and founder of Roland Dransfield, an award-winning communications agency in Manchester. And Lisa herself has also won many awards, but I know there’s one in particular that is close to her heart, and one that I think sums her up best. And that’s the award she won from the Isle of Manchester organisation, the Worker Bee Award, and she won that last year. And the category description for that is an inspirational worker bee who was grafted their way to the top of their chosen field and left a permanent mark in their industry in Greater Manchester. And to my mind, that sums Lisa up to a T.

(04:03): And of course, if you’re wondering why I keep going on about bees, well, particularly following the arena bombing, bees have become the symbol of Manchester. And one thing we are going to focus on later is that values, purpose, and legacy are key to the way that Lisa does business. As well as fostering purposeful relationships for our clients, Lisa’s podcast, We Built This City, celebrates and champions those Mancunians born, bred and adopted who have been in, and are, building a legacy for the city, something that Lisa has done in spades.

(04:41): So, Lisa, Mrs. Manchester, welcome to 3:00 AM Conversations. Good to see you.

Lisa Morton (04:47): Thanks Peter. Great to be here.

Peter Jackson (04:48): Good, good. Now, you and I have worked together for some years now, and we both know that relationships are so important in business, but if I go right back to where you were starting from, it was an important personal relationship that really set you up for the years to come in your career. So, tell me a bit about the man who inspired the name, Roland Dransfield.

Lisa Morton (05:10): So, Roland met my dad when my dad was a mechanic in Salford, and dad used to service Roland’s cars. And Roland was a real rags to riches success in Salford, and he just really liked the way that my dad serviced the cars and the way my dad was with him. So he offered dad a job to go and work in his business, which was called R. Dransfield Engineers Limited, founded in 1974. Roland Dransfield PR Limited goes back to ‘74, because we took it off the shelf and renamed it.

(05:43): And Roland recognised my entrepreneurial spirit at a very early age. Because looking back, I used to sell anything that wasn’t nailed down. I used to do table sales, nick stuff out the house that looked like it was the end of life and then stick it on a table outside the house. I used to sell lettuce butters. My uncle, Arthur, over the road, he used to give me his monkey lettuces and I sold them. But Roland came to my house one day, about eight, I was eight years old, and he said, “Right, you’ve got a car washing round now. Go out and wash the cars in the road. You’ve got to pay me back for the bucket and sponge, and that’s when you’re in profit. And if you’re not in profit, you need to go out again next week.” Anyway, I was in profit, but I did that car washing round until I was 15, and then fell in love with shoes and went to work in a shoe shop.

(06:32): But what he said to me at the time, then I remember it’s about relationships, he said, “The best business you can have is repeated business.” He said, “You don’t want to be going out finding new cars every week, so make sure you build relationships, find out what the customer wants, deliver a great service, and then you’re going to have those customers for a long time.” So that was Roland. And when I started the business, I decided that I was going to honour what Roland taught me.

Peter Jackson (06:56): Lovely. Well, let’s focus on starting up the business. And of course, that coincided with you playing a key part in Manchester’s regeneration after the 1996 bomb. And that’s where actually you and Anjon have a link. Because I think, Anjon, you were a student in Manchester at the time, is that right?

Anjon Mallik (07:13): That’s right. I was coming to the end of my time in Manchester. I remember it so well. I wasn’t in the city, but I heard the bomb go. And it’s been really interesting seeing how the people of Manchester and you in particular, Lisa, just how you responded to such a tragic event.

Lisa Morton (07:32): Thankfully, lots of people were very badly injured, but there were no deaths. And I think, I set the business at one month after that bomb. It hadn’t been my plan and that was just the timing, but it meant immediately there was a job to do. And I think often people say that that was the catalyst that changed Manchester in terms of its built environment. But in actual fact, Michael Heseltine had already allocated a big fighting fund for Manchester. So there were plans at foot, London, Sir Howard Bernstein and Sir Richard Lees. But it was at that point when, as Manchester always does in time of a crisis, people, they pull together and put any competition or rivalries aside and pull together for the better good. And we’ve seen that with the Arena bomb and in COVID.

(08:19): So, I think out of that really negative situation, as a young business, we were thrust into a position of where, if you could help, you got a place around the table. And we went on to do a lot of work in the built environment sector, and we then got involved in a lot of the place-making for those new neighbourhoods at the Northern Quarter, and the central core, and Spinningfields. So, that really puts us on the platform, and it was a time that I really look back and feel very proud of.

Peter Jackson (08:47): How do you think the PR landscape has changed over the years since you started out 28 years ago?

Lisa Morton (08:56): Well, it’s changed because we have the internet and we don’t have to send hard copies of photographs with a printed out caption on the back of it in a hard envelope to media, and then it was carry pigeon. So, obviously technology has completely changed everything. So we were one of the first PR companies that then adopted content marketing, digital marketing. And not long after that, we changed the PR, public relations, to purposeful relationships because ultimately everything we do, no matter what platform you use, it’s all about the relationships you create either to enhance your bottom line, or to improve culture, or to create social impact. So I would say the tools are different, but the actual principles are the same.

Peter Jackson (09:41): You use the word culture there, and I know you’re big on culture both personally and as an organisation. And of course, you’ve got your Roland Dransfield way. I’ve got the purposeful values here and some of them are absolutely fantastic. “Sweep the sheds, never leave the game early.” How did you draw those up?

Lisa Morton (10:02): At that time, I think it was 2017, I decided that I wanted to take some risks in the business and really go for scale. I had hunted a few people out of, senior levels from different agencies, and we went for big growth. There was a honeymoon period to that, and then not long after, some wheels started falling off. And I was struggling with it for a while. And I spoke to somebody who’d been introduced to me as the universe, brings people into your life. A guy called Chris Brindley MBE, he set up, he was the first MD of Metro Bank in the UK. And he said to me, “You need to focus on your values.” And he said, “And it’s really irrelevant what the values are for everybody else, but it’s your business, so if they’re not your values, you’re not even going to want to walk through the door.”

(10:48): So that felt that expression of put your oxygen mask on before you put everybody else’s on. It felt a bit selfish, but I realised, I couldn’t please everybody. But we did want to involve the whole team in setting those values, but my line was no matter what those values are, it has to feel good to me. So we went through this process, which was brilliant. The whole team was involved. We all had to read different books and then we did this exercise that we went through. The book that really stood out for everybody was Legacy, James Kerr, about the All Blacks. And I’ll read that religiously every year and I would get something different out of it every year, but that was the one that resonated.

(11:25): So, a lot of our values when we distilled them all down, reflect the values of the All Blacks. And I don’t think you can go wrong, to be quite… They stood us in good stead. And we put them in place in 2018, and I definitely know that we would not have got through COVID without those values keeping us focused, because the day we had to leave to go and work from home, those values are on the wall. And I stood in front of that wall the day before went home, and I just thought, “Whenever we come back in, the world could be different, the business could be different, but those values will be the same.” And they kept us going.

Anjon Mallik (12:02): I’ve also read Legacy-

Lisa Morton (12:04): Amazing.

Anjon Mallik (12:04): And I’m interested what you said about you got the team involved in putting the values together and to what extent do you think that everyone took ownership of those values as well as you having obviously the directional lead in that sense?

Lisa Morton (12:16): Well, the actual experience was brilliant. That book fired everybody up, from the person who was 20 years old in the business to the senior team. It’s so exposing. That book, sweep the sheds, for example, which is all about the All Blacks, no matter how successful their game has been, after they’ve celebrated, everyone is asked to leave and they’ll quietly make good the shed. About small jobs being as important as the big wins.

(12:44): And I remember it empowering, because we had a problem in the office where the senior team, they’d go into a board meeting or they go into an office, bring clients in, and they would leave it looking like a tip in there. They wouldn’t clean the stuff up, and it was left to the younger team members to go in and do that. And I remember empowering because we could laugh about these things. When it said sweep the sheds, the 20-year-old can go in and come out to the senior team and go, “Oi, get back in there, go and sweep the shed. It’s a disgrace.” So, it empowered everybody because they’re the values. It’s not the senior leadership team feel like this, therefore you must do. It wasn’t. It was a complete leveller.

Anjon Mallik (13:26): Because values don’t sit with a particular age demographic, do they?

Lisa Morton (13:30): No. No.

Anjon Mallik (13:30): And I suppose that the challenge for you would be whether those values were natural to some of your colleagues, and so easy for them to do, and whether some really had to change their mindset.

Lisa Morton (13:42): Well, absolutely. They had to change their mindset. It had to change all of our mindset. And in actual fact, I stuck to my guns about a couple of them being in there because I knew that that was going to challenge some of the people in the team. You can’t walk past, “No dickheads” in two-foot lettering on the wall many times if you know you’re being one. And that applies to everyone. We are all sometimes guilty of being that. But having that vernacular, which I don’t apologise for, you’re not saying you are being one. Sometimes you say to yourself, “Stop being one. Just get a grip.”

(14:21): We’ve got 15. And some people said to us, “Why? You don’t need that many.” But every one of those makes me smile, and they became part of our narrative. So, on a Monday morning, one of the team would choose a value that we’d lived through that week, and then the following Monday morning we’d all till up and we’d say, “Okay, how did it work? How did it feel? Where did we get it wrong?” And then we’d choose another one, we go again. So we did that the whole way through COVID.

Peter Jackson (14:46): And what I like about them, and I’d like to think we do that as a business at Hill Dickinson, is you didn’t just choose words, because anyone can choose words. And let’s be honest, in many organisations they’re the same. Nobody puts disreputable, or untruthful, or words like that, do they? But you actually defined what you meant by the phrase or the expression you were using. Well, how would you define a dickhead, then?

Lisa Morton (15:10): It’s the integrity piece. It’s all about integrity. We have another value, it’s like, “Do what you say you’ll do, the way you said you’ll do it, when you said you’ll do it.” Now, that’s not always possible. And another value we have is no integrity slippage. But we get it, so you can’t always have complete integrity, your intention could be right, but we make mistakes. So then we have admit it, fix it, move on. Which is not a cop-out, but we give ourselves space to make mistakes and then learn from them. So, I really felt it was important to describe the values so that it became a language rather than just a set of rules.

Peter Jackson (15:44): And they link up as you say, don’t they?

Lisa Morton (15:46): Yeah.

Peter Jackson (15:46): It gives you that flexibility. Great. Well, should we move on to 3:00 AM Conversations? The first one you gave us, you talk about having to run the business with your family, and at one point you had a week old baby and you learned that your stand-in in the business was about to leave and steal all the clients and all that goes with that. At the stage you were setting up the business, you were a woman alone in business. It was unusual at the time, wasn’t it? And it must have brought challenges that I might not have encountered if I’d been there. So, why is that still keeping you awake 28 years later?

Lisa Morton (16:22): The trauma of that was so great, and I suppose it led to so many different… The outcome of that situation has impacted my life. And just thinking about how difficult that was, makes me feel emotional, because as a woman in business, and I heard Sally Penny talk about this on the last podcast, as soon as you have kids, it feels like it’s your duty that’s got to be your… As a woman, that’s got to be first and foremost your priority because you’ve got to keep your kids alive. That’s your job, of course. And the responsibility to that is huge. If you have responsibility, then also making sure that those kids survive. You can put bread on the table, you can keep your house, and you can keep something that you love, which was my career, also. It’s at that moment, I suppose you go back to I grew up believing as a woman that I could have it all, and we were told we could have it all. And once you get it all, you go, “Don’t want it all.” And I wouldn’t change it, but it leaves scars.

(17:55): And at that point, because my son was not even two, Alex was 21 months, Nina, I was in the recovery room, whatever you call after you’ve had a baby, when I was told that the person that I promoted who was a woman who I trusted, and there’s a special place in hell for women that do this to women, let me tell you. That somebody pulled the rug from under your feet in that scenario. What it made me realise is the fact you are here on your own in life, you literally are. I felt like a lioness who had got to protect her kids. And the other thing is I knew at that point as well when I was giving birth to my daughter and the weeks running up that I was going to be a single parent very soon after that with two kids under two and a business to run. So, it was a hell of a lot to deal with, and I didn’t know if it was going to survive it.

(18:53): And I was also full of grief because I wasn’t able to have that time with my daughter that I’d thought I would. So, it was very, very frightening, but then got through it and I had the support of my clients, because what I found out was that the business, was a London-based business, liked the look of our business and our model, and had decided that a woman who just had a child was a good time to try and bulldoze that business and settle with their clients. And they’d actually written to what all our clients saying, and the actual words were, “As you’ll know, Lisa’s just had a child and is going to find it very difficult to service your clients. Therefore, it’s a smooth transition with X person who will remain nameless, who can transition your accounts.”

(19:42): You couldn’t do it now. You wouldn’t be able to do it now, but every single client actually gave me the letter back and they all got in touch with me to say, “We’ve got you back. We’re here for you. We know it’s going to be tough for you, but we’re not going to put any pressure on you.” And I couldn’t believe. That, to be honest with you, I thought it’s going to be okay. I can get through anything. It gave me some breathing space.

Anjon Mallik (20:08): When you reflect on it now, Lisa, do you think at the time you just got on with it and you fought, and you didn’t really analyse it too much? Whereas now, do you think about it in a different way that it maybe has given you confidence to show how you dealt with it?

Lisa Morton (20:24): At the time, there was literally no question of just having to just one foot in front of the other. I just had to crack on. And I was always… I suppose it does make me laugh, because just recently we’re chatting with my kids, and we were saying one of the first full sentences out my daughter’s mouth was, written on ‘02, “Where’s my bloody mobile?” So, they’ve grown up around, we were talking about… But it was actually when it was lock down, although again for different reasons, the business went under incredible pressure in lockdown, as were lots of other businesses.

(20:57): I said, “I got my maternity leave then with both the kids.” Because the kids were at home and they were both… And we did. We had some very special times. So, it did come eventually. But no, it does make you aware of your vulnerability and the fact that there are probably lots of other women who have been in a similar situation. But it’s very difficult, very, very difficult having to look after two kids under two and a brand new baby and save your business, and not have any support. Although, I have to say I had an amazing nanny, who I’m in touch with now, who she appeared from nowhere and she got us through it.

Peter Jackson (21:31): And you did get through it, and you’re here today, and it was all very successful. But with the benefit of the 20 years or more experience you now have, what advice would you give a young woman or indeed anybody who doesn’t look like me, white, middle-aged bloke who is starting out in business on their own as you very much were, what words of wisdom would you give them?

Lisa Morton (21:56): Ask for help.

Peter Jackson (21:59): Don’t do it yourself.

Lisa Morton (22:00): Ultimately, you do it yourself. I think there’s less of a stigma now, but back then, and I don’t know if that was back then or that was me, it was a sign of vulnerability if you had to ask for help. And I think people are much better. And I informally mentor a few women now and my daughter’s 23, but I think that having surrounded yourself with a tribe of people who can help. When I started out in business, every room I went into was full of white blokes in suits, pretty much. They didn’t have the lived experience, could impossibly that I had. I see that now. But ask for help.

(22:39): And I think vulnerability actually now is a good thing to have as a leader. Because what I also found in COVID, again with the values, one of our values is leaders create leaders. And I was going on Zooms saying to them, “Look, I haven’t got the answers.” We were all extremely scared. And what I found then is with leaders create leaders and me saying, “I’ve not got the answers. I’ll tell you every day what I know.” The younger people in the team who, there wasn’t the hierarchy of desks or who sat where, they came through, they shone. And I think in that situation, because they saw my vulnerability as a leader, they were like, “I can do this too. Because I am scared. She’s scared. So we can all muck in and help.” And I think that’s a powerful culture and a powerful message that you don’t have all the answers. So, I might need some help sometimes. So I would recommend that to anybody, ask for help.

Peter Jackson (23:34): Very good counsel. Let’s move on to the second one. And when you were describing this, you use the expression, “Can you just…” And it’s about learning to say no, isn’t it? And spotting red flags, and projects, people, organisations, really either you can’t help or you don’t want to help and having the guts to say so. I suppose, that still troubles you?

Lisa Morton (24:02): Yeah, it does. That is definitely a 3:00 AM’er. Because you don’t want to say no. And when you get a certain part in your career and in your life, there are things that you can do, and you can do them really quickly and relatively easily for people. So I’m always conscious of that. And if I can do something, because I’ve got those contacts or I’ve made the mistakes, and I want to help.

(24:27): But there are a lot. One morning we were laughing because we do talk about in the office, I’d had seven before 9:40, and from different platforms and they pop up. But then you feel guilty about not having the time to even go back and say, “I will. I can. Can you just give me a bit of time? Can you just give me a bit of time?” So that’s always something I want to do, but there are also people and organisations out there who want the benefit of your years and decades of experience, and have added value to other people, to get you to give that value to them for nothing. And it’s there the red flags, and sometimes they are really well disguised. So, sometimes you have to weed those out.

(25:08): But ultimately, I do feel that I could spend 24/7 helping people, but then that’s not paying your bills. And not just for me, I’ve got a duty of care to make sure that I put that value back into a business where I’ve got other people’s careers to think about.

Anjon Mallik (25:24): So, how do you handle that then, Lisa? And does the way you handle it allow you to not have a 3:00 AM every time about the issue?

Lisa Morton (25:34): I was told recently that no is a full sentence. And I’m really struggling with that, because I always feel I’ve got to say, “No. I can’t. And I’m really sorry. Do it another time.” But in actual fact, I’m really now working hard on saying, “I think what you’re doing is absolutely incredible. If there’s one thing that you think I could really help with, it won’t take a lot of time, I will. But I can’t give time to be a trustee, or come on the panels, or come on the committees. I just can’t do that, because I want to, but I know that I’ll let you down because I’m over-committed.”

(26:08): I’ve also found that if I choose a couple of pro bono things for a year, I can say, “That’s where I’m putting my effort, but let’s have a chat in a year’s time.” Because the danger is, by wanting to help, you over-promise, under-deliver, and people get annoyed with you even though it’s a free thing that you’re doing. So, I’m conscious of that as well. But I definitely think for the soul, we should all do something that we’re not getting paid for.

Peter Jackson (26:33): I’d agree with that. But two observations I’d make. First of all, right back to where we started, and relationships, I’d suggest you’re more likely to be willing to engage yourself in a pro bono or whatever it might be if you know your relationship with that person, that organisation is strong and you are their trusted advisor. And actually, what you’re doing is only going to enhance that relationship even more. The second point I’d made was, I’ve become adept to using the expression, “You probably need somebody better than me on this particular one.”

Lisa Morton (27:06): Love it. Thank you.

Peter Jackson (27:07): It’s got me out of a few scrapes in the last few months since I started getting these approaches. But let’s move on, shall we, to the third and final 3:00 AM conversation. And you framed this by using the expression, “Good enough never is good enough.” And that’s about your eternal fight against perfectionism, and being a control freak, and accepting that you can’t make mistakes. And yet, there’s the counterintuitive piece there, isn’t there? That one of your values is, “Look, we all make mistakes. It’s about how you deal with them.” So, no doubt that does keep you awake at 3:00 in the morning. Talk about that.

Lisa Morton (27:43): Well, probably around, I don’t know, 10 years ago or so, that good enough never is was our strap line, our mission statement, maybe a bit longer ago than that. At that time, things were very heavy personally and professionally, and I went to get some counselling, therapy, whatever. As I went into the first session, I introduced myself and handed my business card, and she flipped it over on the back of it. It said, “Good enough never is.” And she said, “You can rip that right up.” And that was the root of a lot of the problems.

(28:19): And good enough is good enough. And as long as you’re coming from a position of integrity and you’re doing your best, your best is okay. And your best may better on some days and it isn’t on the others. And I’m saying this, but it is something I work on a lot to try and give myself a break. And I’m good at giving other people a break. I’m good at saying to people, “You need to take that load off. Don’t put yourself under that much pressure.” But then what often happens is that you take the stuff that you’re taking off those people and take it on yourself. And you must see that. And we’ve discussed that, Peter.

(29:01): But that, then I think goes back to a culture of perfectionism. And I’d say, is that any easier now? Don’t think so. I think social media is weighting heavier on that than it ever was before. But I think that mine probably goes back to being a young person, and whether that was environment or just my own makeup, I was so driven to be the best at everything.

Anjon Mallik (29:27): I think that’s where there’s the tension between, you talked before in the first 3:00 AM Conversation between having to fight to survive and knowing that you have to be the best out there to put food on the table. And then, the tension between that and knowing that there are limits.

Lisa Morton (29:47): That’s true. And then growing up in working-class Salford, as I did, the community was very much about bigger person. We have this expression, “Family eats last.” And so, if anyone came around to your house and there wasn’t enough, you just did. My mum used to say, “Be a good person. You get to the back of the queue. When everyone’s sorted, you come forward.” Metaphorically. And my dad was like, “I got rewards.” It’s a real dichotomy, isn’t it? You can’t be the best at everything and be perfect and be good all the time.

(30:24): I still struggle with that, although I definitely rest. I wore my graft like a badge of honour. But I think that was true of probably the ’90s, being a young woman in business. We all did it. I think young people today are very much more aware of the fact that rest is okay. Rest is a right. You don’t have to work yourself into the ground in order to justify having a bit of time off work.

Peter Jackson (30:53): Do you think… And it’s something I found myself doing, and I don’t criticise myself for it. Do you find yourself compromising in your decision-making and accepting you’re not going to be perfect sometimes, in respect of your own business?

Lisa Morton (31:08): Yes, it hurts, but I do. I do. And also I do think I’m just not making that decision today. It’s fine. So, for example, I just have had a couple of weeks off work and I’ve not two weeks off work for a while. And the last time I did, I climbed Kilimanjaro for charity. And I realised I’ve only ever put two out-of-offices in my career, so I’m not very good at it. And also, I thought it was shameful. So, I thought, “Well, I can always pick my emails up.” Kilimanjaro was like, “No, I’m going to be out of contact for quite a few days.” So I figured out how to do this out-of-office.

(31:42): And then this time I’m going to Bali on a yoga retreat and to do some stuff, I thought, “Seven hours difference.” So I figured out how to put the out-of-office on. I was like, “I’ve done it.” Landed in Bali, and my best mate messaged me, and she said, “You’re doing Kilimanjaro again.” So, I literally don’t even know how to put an out-of-office.

Peter Jackson (31:58): You have to change the wording.

Lisa Morton (32:00): Well, I had done, but I’ve not saved it. But that made me laugh. And I thought, then I was full of shame, like, “That looks ridiculous. That’s got a bounce back to people saying, I’m doing Kili again.” And then, I thought, “I’m just leaving it. I can’t even be bothered. I’m not getting the laptop out to figure this out.” So, that was a real achievement for me, just to leave that as a mistake.

Anjon Mallik (32:21): I think most people would know the internet signal at the top of Kilimanjaro isn’t spot on.

Lisa Morton (32:26): No.

Peter Jackson (32:29): Right. We’re going to have to wrap up in a minute because time’s against us. But before we go, one question. So they’re going to make Mrs. Manchester, the movie, at some point.

Lisa Morton (32:37): God.

Peter Jackson (32:38): So who’s going to play Lisa Morton, the starring role?

Lisa Morton (32:41): Do you know what, she can’t because she’s not with us, but Caroline Aherne.

Peter Jackson (32:48): Okay, go on. Explain.

Lisa Morton (32:49): Oh, she was absolutely everything.

Peter Jackson (32:52): Did you know her? Did you work work her too?

Lisa Morton (32:54): I’d never met her. I never met her. And she’s the one person that if I could have anybody on We Built this City, it would be Caroline. Just everything. The most incredible and troubled, ultimately troubled person, but the funniest most down to earth. Every single person that worked with her. And I know a lot of people who do, so I feel like I know some of Caroline through them, just said she was a dream to work with. She let you be yourself.

(33:18): When they did the Royle Family, which was such, I could relate to the Royle Family. It was everything that we grew up with. Ricky Tomlinson adopted Mank through that. She just summarised for me what it was like growing up in a warm Manchester community. And I do know that she allowed everyone to be themselves on the set, and she allowed people to make mistakes. She wasn’t a control freak. The beauty of everything she was involved was because she allowed it to be authentic. And I just think, “Wow.”

Peter Jackson (33:49): So you get your role model to play for you. That’s pretty good going. You can’t ask for better than that. Lisa, thank you so much for being with us today. You’ve been very generous with your time, very generous with your observations on 3:00 AM Conversations. I hope talking them through has helped.

Lisa Morton (34:03): It’s like therapy. Thank you.

Peter Jackson (34:07): Good. Excellent.

Lisa Morton (34:07): Thank you both.

Peter Jackson (34:07): Okay, thank you very much indeed. So, Anjon, we’ve just spoken with Lisa. Lisa Morton. Anything particularly chime with you?

Anjon Mallik (34:22): Well, first of all, she’s a very impressive character and has done an awful lot. I think one thing that really struck me was just her recognition of how hard she’s had to fight to get to where she’s gotten. And that resonated with me a bit, when you don’t look like what, in my case-

Peter Jackson (34:40): Don’t look like me.

Anjon Mallik (34:41): Well, in my case, what a Yorkshire businessman or Yorkshire businesswoman might think a construction lawyer might look like. You develop a set of skills, perhaps not realising it at the time. And I think over the passage of time, you can reflect back and see how that’s made you as a person. And Lisa’s clearly had to felt the need she had to be absolutely better than the next person. And I really felt a connection with what she was saying and some of the work we’re doing now at HD.

Peter Jackson (35:12): I recognise that. But on the back of that, I think as well, experience has taught her other things. And I particularly liked the words of wisdom to the young woman, whoever, starting out in business about ask for help. And it’s certainly been my experience. I think I may have mentioned it on earlier shows that I learned at a very early stage of my leadership career to surround myself with people who were better than me at their jobs, and to let them get on with it, and not micromanage and not be dictatorial.

Anjon Mallik (35:47): You might have been a bit ahead of your time there, Peter, because I think that concept has only recently become a thought process for more people. And it was good hearing from Lisa how, even though she’s very successful and very confident, she still needs a cohort around her to lean on, to bounce questions off. And she’ll get more strength from that in the way perhaps you did as well.

Peter Jackson (36:13): I certainly did get strength from it. I knew who to turn to both internally and externally to help, depending on the issue might be. What I also liked was she was prepared to accept that she could actually make compromises in decision-making. She didn’t like it. But I found that that becomes inevitable as a leader of a business because you’re making scores of small decisions every day, and you have to get to the stage where you accept that you are going to make compromises because those decisions just have to be made. You’ll make mistakes. The trick is to recognise those decisions that really did require thought, consideration, perhaps consultation with others, and give those the time that they deserved. And the smaller issues, don’t overthink them, don’t over analyse them. You’ve got to make them. Trust your gut, trust your experience, and move on. And actually, I would disagree with her. I don’t think it should kill you. It should hurt you if you have to do that, because that’s just being business efficient, in my view.

Anjon Mallik (37:19): That’s right. And choosing the issues where you absolutely need to make the decision and still be involved, I think is the message that came across. Whereas, you can let go and let others perhaps take the lead on other things. That was the other thing that was really powerful in what she said. And you could really get across how it was important to her that her whole team was involved in the process of establishing the values of the business, living them. So many businesses talk about culture and values, particularly in our world, but actually, are they just words or are they actually being delivered by the business?

Peter Jackson (37:56): I like that. And the way she described how they would pick a value, discuss it, consult about it, and then live it. So, it wasn’t just words. And I liked, in particular, and it resonated with me, leaders create leaders, and the pandemic experience. And we had exactly the same, in that each and every one of our partners had to accept they were a leader in that situation. And it wasn’t just down to the CEO, the management team, the board. It was each and every one of the owners of the business, effectively.

(38:31): And I’ll admit that we were nervous at the outset whether our people, because it was new to all of us, this scenario, whether people would be able to stand up. But they did, as Lisa said, in her organisation, and they led their own teams and they led their people and they cared for them, mentored them, and guided them through it, and came out stronger.

Anjon Mallik (38:49): And you could never have planned for it. It just happened. Everyone just had to respond. So more recently, the riots in August and the work we’re doing in the multicultural group at Hill Dickinson, I’m just so proud of how as a group, as a collective, where I think really stood out in terms of the support we gave our people. And we were all sharing from each other. And just over that period of time, just had this fantastic safe space. And I’ve spoken to people in other law firms, and it just wasn’t there. It’s just very special to think that the culture and the values actually meant something and mean something in the business we’re working in.

Peter Jackson (39:26): And that is about values. It is about culture and living the words. And if you think of our stated values, respect is one of the principle elements of our culture. And that’s a classic example, isn’t it, of how we can put that into practise on a daily basis.

Anjon Mallik (39:43): Yeah.

Peter Jackson (39:45): So thanks for listening to this episode of 3:00 AM Conversations, and you’ll hear from us again in a month’s time. Please rate, review and follow the podcast, and that way you’ll be able to spread the word. And if you’d like to find out more about how Hill Dickinson might be able to help you, then head to hilldickinson.com. Thanks for listening.