From office junior to CEO: leading through adversity

Peter Jackson (00:00):

Dan, good morning. Welcome to 3:00 AM Conversations. Thanks for coming in.

Dan Booth (00:03):

No problem. Thank you for having me.

Peter Jackson (00:04):

Our pleasure. We’ll get to your three conversations soon, but let’s put them in context first with a bit about you and a bit about the business. Your story is a bit of a boot room to boardroom, isn’t it? Because you joined the business, I would imagine, straight from school at 16?

Dan Booth (00:19):

Straight from school.

Peter Jackson (00:19):

Tell us about that.

Dan Booth (00:20):

Yeah. I guess, it starts with really me in education didn’t mix particularly well. I didn’t like it. I didn’t like the format, didn’t like being told what to do, when to do it. Couldn’t quite see the point of it. I’d grown up in an environment where I’d gone out to work pretty early. My dad was in construction, so I’ve been used to working with him and the guys from a young age. Probably went and started work at maybe 11, 12. I just didn’t like the environment where in one minute I’m doing what I want, and then being told what to do, and where to go, and walk down the corridor on the left-hand side, and go down these stairs, and go up them stairs. I didn’t like that. Wasn’t bothered by finishing any… doing exams or anything like that. I was just going to go and work with my dad.

(01:09):

I loved that. We used to go to work, work hard, and straight to the pub after. So, that was interesting. That environment, it interested me a little bit, but Mom’s know best. And in fairness to my mom, she’d seen a job that was advertised in the local paper, The Bury Times, for an office junior or an audit junior I think it was. So, she made the appointment, took me up to a regional accountancy practise, which was Down in Train Epstein or DTE at the time, in the spring of ‘95. And she sent me in there and said, “Go and get a job.” So, I went in there in 16 and a bit. Met the managing partner, Keith Train. And he just said, “You want a job? We’ll give you one. That’s not a problem. Make sure you try your best. Don’t tell any lies and pass your driving test as soon as you can.”

(02:05):

And he said there’s a couple of guys who were… who were going to start an [inaudible 00:02:09] business later on in the year. We’d missed out on the recession of the early ’90s. And he said, “I’m not going to let that happen again.” So, there’s a couple of guys starting from Robson Rolls who were Andrew Poxon and John Titley. Even work out, doing this junior type office work, then you can always jump on with them, them guys. So, that’s how it started. I’ll be honest with you, at first I didn’t like it.

Peter Jackson (02:34):

Did you know what it was about? Did you have any idea what you were letting yourself into?

Dan Booth (02:40):

Not really, but you don’t do at that age, I don’t think. You’ve never worked in an environment like that. It’s quite formal. Totally different to the office environment now. We had a Tannoy at the front desk, where if you didn’t pick your phone up in three rings, did Tannoy your name across the entire office building. Suits, shirts, ties, very different. So, I didn’t really know what I was letting myself in for. And I think because of the way I was introduced into the business and I’d met Keith, I had some sort of lining or a really good relationship with him that maybe other people didn’t have and he trusted me to do things. So, I’ve setup account somewhere to get them signed, and come back, and borrow a partner’s car and all the rest of it. So, he got to do all that sort of stuff and very quickly. And it was quite an evolving business as well. He was quite forward-thinking.

(03:28):

When I started there, we had our own financial services business, our own insurance broker business, IT business too. So, he was like, I’ve got an audit client, what else can I sell to these people? So, he was quite forward-thinking. He was a great guy to work with. He’s extremely calm and influenced a lot of the way I am today, no doubt. And I didn’t like it at first. You just have to catch two buses to get home. And you think to yourself, and it wasn’t just that either. A lot of them, the other pals and friends, they were straight to work in the construction job earning more money than I was. I was getting described as a bit of a pen pusher. You know the sorts of lads. And it was hard not to think, oh, it’s just easy. I’ll just go over and do that. But I stuck at it and there must’ve been something inside me that suggested I should. And I think a lot of it was down to Keith and being given that sense of responsibility. And if you want to do well here, you absolutely can.

Peter Jackson (04:29):

Well, fast-forward, because you did stick at it, of course. And 25 years later, you’re made CEO.

Dan Booth (04:36):

Yes.

Peter Jackson (04:38):

So, how did that feel having gone right through from I’ll say the bottom all the way to the top?

Dan Booth (04:43):

Yeah. And it was. And I think I was in the most junior position in the business then. The business had evolved a lot in that period. So, when it happened, there is still a change though. There is still a massive sense of responsibility and the decisions rest with you to make. If you take your job very seriously, which I do and lots of people do, then you want to make the right ones. So, I became acting chief exec during June 2019, started the role properly, if you will, 1st of Jan. Had a couple of months at that early 2020 and then COVID came. And we were making decisions about situations that were brand new to everybody. And in a weird sort of way, looking back now, I think that was a bit of a blessing really, because you had to really get up to speed, what we’re going to do.

(05:41):

We had to get X hundred people, hundreds of people into a safe environment. So, that was interesting. So, it felt great, great sense of responsibility. But I can’t lie and say that you don’t sit there and wonder what people are thinking about the decisions you make. Are they the right ones? Could I make a different one?

Peter Jackson (06:03):

Well, we’ll come back to those, because they’re sort of formed the nub of some of your 3:00 AM conversations. But Sean, you’ve picked up something, haven’t you?

Sean Lightfoot (06:10):

Yeah. I mean, I think you’ve been recently nominated for BusinessCloud Northern Leaders 2025 list. So, how does that make you feel having gone through that journey to CEO?

Dan Booth (06:20):

I’m very fortunate. I saw that last week or the week before. And I think I’ve said, I’m very proud and privileged to be in some extremely good company if you look at the rest of the list. But the reality is whoever else is in that list, I can only influence what I can influence. I can only do the best job I can do with what I’ve got. And I’m a chief exec of professional services business, doing insolvency legal fundraising and business services. So, everyone else on the list is doing their own thing. But I’m very proud, very privileged, and very fortunate to have been nominated and named, but it’s part of a wider team. Nobody does anything, truly anything on their own. I’m very fortunate that there’s a great team of people, and the business has got a great reputation and brand, so there’s lots of different instances and situations I think that the end result is something like that.

Sean Lightfoot (07:19):

Yeah. I know what you mean. Very modest answer.

Dan Booth (07:23):

It’s the truth.

Sean Lightfoot (07:24):

It’s the truth.

Peter Jackson (07:24):

Yeah. It has to be. It’s got to be a team. No leader can lead without followers.

Dan Booth (07:29):

Yeah.

Sean Lightfoot (07:29):

Definitely.

Peter Jackson (07:29):

You’ve got to get them to follow you .

Dan Booth (07:30):

100%.

Peter Jackson (07:31):

You mentioned there that a major plank of what your business does is in the insolvency space. In this economic climate, what are you seeing as some of the major reasons businesses are struggling and ultimately failing?

Dan Booth (07:46):

I think, ultimately, inflationary pressure has a lot to do with decisions that people make. The cost of products, we all have to go to the supermarket ourselves, and try, and understand what we paid for a couple of years ago and what the prices are now. I think the geopolitical climate also plays a factor. I think people making decisions as to whether or not to invest in this country or in products that we make. I think, ultimately, it comes down to cash. I think there were some decisions that were made last October, that probably people didn’t anticipate happening. As a people business, our biggest cost, our biggest fixed cost is people. And when it costs you more to employ those people or keep them people in a job, that obviously goes to cash. Now, we soak that up. That’s not a problem. Can’t easily pass that cost on, so you soak it up.

(08:42):

Not every business is able to do that. And so, I think businesses in the mid-market as well and businesses in what we call enterprise, they are all suffering from what decisions do we make. Nobody quite understands what decisions are going to be making in the next budget. People talk about there being confidence out there in the market. And I think there is to a degree, because I think people are confident in their ability to do their job. What they’re not confident in, what that actually means in the end, and the principles of trying to increase taxes for those that are already contributing into that system. I’ll be honest, I think it feels a little bit unfair.

Peter Jackson (09:25):

Well, that leads very nicely into the question I was going to drop on you, but you’ve anticipated it. And as we sit here now, we’ve got another budget coming in five or six weeks time. From your perspective, what could the chancellor do to ease the position for businesses?

Dan Booth (09:41):

We are where we are in terms of… Obviously, you could argue that we could put the position back from an employer’s national insurance point of view to where we are. I think people who are in the farming sector, as the agricultural sector as an example, I think abolished inheritance tax. Those people don’t work for very much money. It’s a way of life for them. But if nothing else, just stand still now. The VAT threshold as an example for me could create some catastrophic scenarios. There’s talk of it, the VAT threshold reducing down to 30,000. I think the last time that VAT threshold was done at 30,000 was 1991. You’re going to take a load of people out the game who are either not going to exist anymore or they’re going to have to put the prices up. And people haven’t got that disposable income.

(10:34):

If I was to ask her to do anything is, I’d ask her to take some tax off the table. But if she wasn’t prepared to do that, do nothing. But we need some stimulus. We need people to feel as though they want to go to work. We need to reward entrepreneurship and people who are prepared to go out there and take a risk. And I’m not sure that some of the tax policies that are in place are supportive of that.

Peter Jackson (11:00):

The older I get, the more I like your suggestion about inheritance tax, but let’s not go there, shall we? Let’s move on to the three conversations, shall we? And you gave us three very, very rich words and the first was responsibility. And you touched on it a little bit earlier. Just to be absolutely clear. When you say that, are you talking about responsibility for your people or responsibility for your clients or both?

Dan Booth (11:29):

Both, but primarily the people. We have a team of people that clearly are responsible for the clients. My primary function, my primary role, responsibility is the people who deliver that service to our clients. So, I have a great sense of responsibility in terms of making sure we create an environment that’s a pleasant environment in which people can work. You want to create a culture that ultimately is sustainable for many, many years to come. A sense of responsibility, the really important one is that on the 27th of every month, everyone gets paid. Absolutely. And that’s a big responsibility, because you are impacting 350 people’s lives and more, because that’s just the people in the business. They’ve got families, and children, mortgages and rent payments, and, and, and. So, that’s where the responsibility comes, because it never stops. It never goes away.

Peter Jackson (12:33):

I remember we had Daniel Gidney on the podcast, who was the CEO at Lancashire County Cricket Club. And he was talking about his first day, first week in the business and he did exactly the same as you. “The first thing I’ve got to do is make payroll. As long as I can pay my people, we’ve got a business for another month.”

Dan Booth (12:51):

Well, you’re finished if you don’t. The people in our business, they have to believe us. They have to believe that what we’re doing is right and that we are capable of doing it. And if you break the one promise that you have with these people, which is if you come here and do X amount of hours, we’re going to pay you X amount of money. You break that promise, you’re finished. And you only get a bad name once you’re not come back from it.

Peter Jackson (13:16):

That bond, that trust is gone, hasn’t it?

Dan Booth (13:18):

100%.

Sean Lightfoot (13:20):

What responsibility do you feel towards succession and legacy?

Dan Booth (13:24):

A lot. Super important. We had a people conference in June of this year, where we got everyone together in Manchester, because it was important that we were as a bit of an inflexion point. We’d not done a deal at that point, but it was really important to give people an update as to what we expect the business to do over the next three to five years. And therefore, what we were saying is it’s really important that we create an environment here and a business that lasts beyond the people in this room. Has to go well beyond. So, we’ve got to set ourselves, we’ve got to set the culture, we’ve got to set the principles, we’ve got to set the environment that lasts beyond the people in this room for 10, 15, 20 years to come. This is our 30th anniversary. And I want this business to still be going in 30 years time, with a similar set of values, and principles and the way that we work. You want to see something for the future. That’s what we’re doing it for really. And that’s where the value is for everybody.

Peter Jackson (14:25):

Absolutely. So, thinking in terms of responsibility and thinking of those dark hours, 3:00 in the morning. And as you said earlier, it all points at you at the end of the day or team around you, but it’s your responsibility as you say. So, give us an example without speaking out of turn, obviously, of one issue that did take you into the dark hours.

Dan Booth (14:49):

I think it was probably actually before I became chief exec. We had a situation on a case, that if it had gone the wrong way would’ve cost us close to 2 million quid. You do sit there trying to work out what you’re going to do and how you’re going to do it. And ultimately, you come back to principles of, okay, we have a set of principles in the business called the three Cs. And it’s about being confident, it’s about being committed, and it’s about being consistent. And you kind of go, right, I’ve got to be confident enough to deal with this situation. What we’re trying to do and now have we got the right people to do it? Then you’ve got to be committed. You can’t be half in or half out. If this is the way we think we solve this situation, we’ve got to go and do it.

(15:36):

And lastly, you’ve got to be consistent. So, it’s not just about doing it once, it’s about being consistent. And then more importantly, being consistent with not letting this situation happen ever again. So, there are situations that… but they could be big, they could be small. You could be dealing with somebody that perhaps is not very happy in the business and wants to do something different. How are we going to maybe make an acquisition? I get concerned when our PI is up for renewal. And it’s quite simple. And we’re not doing anything different than we’d done the year before. But I do sit there and I go, but what if? What if somebody just decides that actually we’re just not going to… we don’t fancy it this year?

(16:24):

And that’s what concerns you the most. But then you have to go back and go, right, okay, but let’s supply those principles again. And are we confident that we’re a decent business? Are we committed to making sure we deliver the best products and therefore, we are a good host to back? And are we consistent in the way we communicate information to them, which is why they’re comfortable to do it?

Peter Jackson (16:47):

So in a way, are the three Cs your coping mechanism?

Dan Booth (16:51):

I think so, yeah. I manage situations, so if the positives, I managed them on a macro basis. So, I look long-term, the nice-to-haves. And if they are slightly negative, I manage them on a micro basis because you’ve got to be all over them. But I do. I look at it and go, right, okay, well, are we trying our best? If there’s a mistake that happens in the business, is it because somebody did it on purpose? Well, that’s never happened. Some mistakes happen. And arguably to a degree, I think if you’re not making mistakes in business, you’re probably not trying hard enough. You’ve got to go slightly outside of your comfort zone and make some decisions that on reflection later you might go, that probably wasn’t the right thing to do, but we know that now. And I think remaining, I’d like to think I’m a pretty calm guy. So, when situations present themselves, going back to COVID as an example, there was the announcement on the Monday Evening. We’d already planned for people to be at home, but there were things that we had to do in the office.

(17:57):

I didn’t spend a day at home during COVID. I went to work every day, because I felt it was important to be there because we were still managing cash. We couldn’t make transfers out of the business from home addresses. They had to be in the office. So, I was there. I was not going to allow people to be in the office and I’m not going to be there, too. You don’t realise, but people look to you. In that week in particular, one of the ladies who reception in our very office, she went, “I’m pretty calm, because you’ve just been strolling up and down like it’s kind of normal.” Now I’m thinking lots of things in that moment, trying to work out what we do next and how we do it, but it’s my job to look pretty calm, because if I’m pretty calm then everyone else is pretty chilled out.

Peter Jackson (18:47):

Body language speaks wonders, doesn’t it, in that situation?

Dan Booth (18:50):

Yeah. It can be.

Peter Jackson (18:56):

Yeah. It can be. Let’s move on to your second conversation, because again you gave us a rich heading there and it was am I good enough. And I’m assuming that’s all about imposter syndrome-

Dan Booth (19:07):

I think so.

Peter Jackson (19:07):

… and all goes with that.

Dan Booth (19:08):

Definitely. The job I’m doing today, whether I’m sat here or I’ll go back to the office and do some work. If you’re in a business that’s trying to evolve, and trying to be better, and create a better environment for everybody, you’re doing everything for the first time. So, there are no guardrails in the business. And therefore, you’re doing some stuff that you’ve done before. And you can benchmark against that and go, well, we’ve done this before and this is generally what happens. And when we push this button, this happens over here. And when we pull this lever, that happens over there. But the work that we’re doing when you’re trying to push a business forward, and be better, and be bigger, and create a different and improve culture, you’re doing things for the first time, and therefore you don’t quite know how things are going to turn out.

(19:58):

So, every time we go to 353 people, 354 people, 360 people, I’ve never managed a business before with that number of people in. So, it’s the first time all the time. And therefore, I think it’s natural for me to ask that question of myself. Am I really good enough to be managing this business that manages all these people, that he’s trying to support and encourage a particular culture? Am I good enough to do that? And you don’t really know until after it’s happened. So, it’s a question I ask myself, but I haven’t got an answer to. But go to sleep, wake up, get a shower, and go and do your best, and see where you get to.

Peter Jackson (20:50):

Fall back on your three Cs.

Dan Booth (20:51):

Yeah. And look around you. And we try and encourage. We have something in the busy school. We’re signed up to best companies, so we did that for the first time. We were going to do it back in ‘21 and we didn’t in the end, because the surveys that you did were in the February of ‘21. And if you remember, it was when the kids had gone to school for one day in the January and then they’d sent everyone home. And I felt that second lockdown, or if it was second or third lockdown, I can’t remember, that seemed to have a more negative psychological impact on everybody than the first time.

Sean Lightfoot (21:33):

It did, yeah.

Dan Booth (21:36):

And I said, look, people do not need to be asked how they’re thinking and feeling, because it’s not about this business right now. It’s about them and you’re not going to get the right answers. How am I going to be disappointed? Because we’re going to get answers that how people are feeling generally, not how people are feeling about the business. So, we put that on the shelf, and we got it back off last year, and we did the first one. And we got two star rating, which is really quite good. Three stars is the maximum. So, again, it’s great you do that. You’re asking for feedback anonymously. I have to put myself in a particular place when I read some of the feedback, because it’s [inaudible 00:22:18].

Sean Lightfoot (22:18):

Not a dark room.

Dan Booth (22:21):

You ask people feedback, they’re going to give it to you. You might not like some of it, you might not agree with some of it. But in fairness to them, it’s their opinion, and it’s their feedback and you’ve got to respect it, but you do have to put yourself in the right frame of mind when you’re reading it. So, we do that all the time. So, we’re just doing that in the moment with what’s called a pulse reading, which I think is really important to do. And it’s about making sure you’re on track. Are you not too far left? Are you not too far right? They give you a view as to whether or not you’re doing a good job.

(22:51):

I look at it, we do appraisal processes throughout the year. I say to people that arguably I get appraised by 350 people on the 27th of every month. Every month. That’s my appraisal, ultimately. Am I doing it right or not? Because those are decisions that you’re making that take you to a particular place and that’s what you’ll be remembered for. And we all want to be remembered for positive things, not negative.

Sean Lightfoot (23:22):

So, talking about positive things in terms of that constant question of yourself and what we term imposter syndrome. Some people would view that as quite a negative thing, but you’ve actually put good positive spin on it there. Casting that to one side, what do you love about being a leader?

Dan Booth (23:39):

Oh, the impact you can have on people. So, seeing people start in this business, supporting them to do exactly what it is they want to do. I think it’s really important as a business, we identify and support people who want a career and those who want a job. There is a difference and I think you have to support them equally. Both types of people are really important. We need them together. But what you don’t want to be doing is trying to put a square peg into a round hole by getting somebody to say, right, okay, you’ve got to progress by taking these exams and to taking this course. Because for some people, if you take myself as an example, that’s not going to work.

(24:28):

You’re not going to get the best out of those people. For me, it’s seeing the people grow, and develop, and constantly being there as a business. If somebody changes their mind and they don’t want a career anymore, they want a job, circumstances change. That’s fine, we’ll do that. And if somebody thought this might start out with a job, but then decided actually I wouldn’t mind doing a career in insolvency or legal and I want to go to a different office, we can do that, too. So, I think it’s really nice to see people progress, and grow, and develop. And you can see them, they’re getting married, they’re having children. The children are growing up and you can see that. It’s very rewarding for somebody like me to see people doing a job they like to do.

(25:12):

And I think we’re fortunate enough as a business now, we are of a size where I say to people all the time, have a think about which parts of the job, your job you enjoy and which parts you don’t. We’ve got a big enough business now and a number of different personalities, that what you enjoy, somebody else might not enjoy. And what you don’t enjoy, somebody else might enjoy. Because I think the more people, if they spend more time doing the parts of the job that we enjoy, will do a good job. If we do a good job, we’ll enjoy it. And somebody else can do the parts of the job that you don’t enjoy, but they do. And it’s about getting people to step back and go, right, okay, well, if I did this part of the job, could you do that part of the job?

Peter Jackson (26:02):

Let people play to their strengths.

Dan Booth (26:04):

100%. But people sometimes think they look at it in quite a binary two-dimensional way. And I think sometimes you’ve got to take a couple of steps back and go, right, okay, which bits do I like doing? And these bits I don’t like doing, are you okay to do them? And they’re like, yeah, of course.

Peter Jackson (26:22):

But you’ve got to have a mix of skill sets and [inaudible 00:26:24]-

Dan Booth (26:24):

100%.

Peter Jackson (26:24):

… diverse business.

Dan Booth (26:25):

Yeah. So important.

Peter Jackson (26:27):

With that people first philosophy that you talk about, and I’ve heard the business described in those terms, what do you do when you spot a superstar, early doors? Because I think we’d agree, you can tell sometimes, can’t you?

Dan Booth (26:42):

You can. You can. I think you’ve just got to give room people, give them room to grow. And what might be a superstar actually maybe don’t always turn out to be like that. I think you have to support everybody in equal measure. And I said to you before we started, I think a strength I have is the ability to see something before it happens. I tell my kids, I can look around corners, because I can see through walls because I can. And therefore, I’ve had a number of instances. One of our guys who’s an IP in our Bury office now, I remember he was taking his insolvency exams. And his baby was relatively young. And I remember saying to him, “I’m not sure you should be trying to take these exams right now, because you’ve got a lot to cope with. Young baby. It’s not mainly not the right environment. What I won’t want you to do is take them, possibly fail them, and then it set you back.”

(27:43):

So, it’s part of our job to see the warning signs and maybe sometimes save people from themselves, because I think his view would’ve been, no, I want to take them. So, it’s my job to try and see a few steps in front. It’s a bit like playing snooker. We can all bash the balls in the pockets, but then what?

Sean Lightfoot (28:07):

Not sure I can bash the balls in the pocket. Well, I get what your point.

Dan Booth (28:11):

But yeah, you’ve got to be thinking a couple of steps in front.

Sean Lightfoot (28:15):

Definitely.

Peter Jackson (28:15):

You can’t build a break, anything, it’s not sustainable.

Dan Booth (28:18):

No, it’s not. I’m a fairly long-term thinker, and therefore I’m quite a patient guy. And therefore I’m going, right, okay, so we don’t need instant results. I think that’s probably one of the things I’ve noticed. Probably one of the downsides to being in a position that I’m in, you don’t get the instant wins that you used to get. Things are on a much longer term. There is rewarding, but over a longer period of time. Whereas, when you’re in the detail, in the muck and the bullets, you get a win here, and you get a win there, and you’d win a piece of work, and you’d have a result on the job. And I don’t get to see them anymore.

Peter Jackson (29:02):

No. And I suppose as well, there’s a tendency sometimes you as the leader don’t actually get any wins at all. The business does or your people does. If something goes wrong, well, that is your problem.

Dan Booth (29:09):

Yeah, exactly. And I think that’s where you do sit there and go, right, okay, this is the job I’ve got to do. The job is the way I see it. If everything’s going well, I’ll shuffle backwards and push everyone to the front. And if things are going wrong, I’ll push to the front and put everyone behind me. That’s my job. So, if it’s going well, it’s on everyone else. And if it’s going wrong, it’s on me. And that’s just how it is.

Peter Jackson (29:47):

Yeah. It’s leadership. Well, on the basis of things can go wrong occasionally, your third conversation was again a very powerful expression. What can we do better? In a way, that implies that occasionally as you’ve said, things are okay, but occasionally they’re not. And that can sometimes involve hard conversations, can’t it? How do you approach those times?

Dan Booth (30:14):

I think you should always be striving to be better. I think when things go wrong and they inevitably will in business and in life. I’ve heard it said many times, it’s not what you say, it’s how you say it. So, if there is a problem that we need to deal with, if there’s a situation that we’ve got to get the better of, it’s how we approach it together. There is little value in apportioning blame, and pointing the finger, and talking about what we could have done, because that’s in the rear-view mirror and that’s not the direction we’re going in. We don’t drive a car looking in the rear-view mirror. We drive a car looking at the front of the windscreen. So, we’ll park that, and let’s talk about how we fix it, and how we probably don’t let it happen again. And if we have to have a discussion about how it happened later so we can learn from it, that’s different.

(31:14):

But we’re not having a discussion about who is to blame and who isn’t to blame, because I think we go through life every single day making mistakes in some way, shape or form. So, I try and approach it in a respectful manner. We ask people to speak to people in a way that is respectful. We did a Q&A last week. And I was asked whether is there friction between different parts of the business and I don’t think there is. But what I do see, I do see, and I encourage healthy debate. It’s fine for us to disagree. It’s fine for you to have a view on how we should do things. It’s fine for me to have a different view. What we’ve then got to do is work out, well, how are we going to approach it?

(32:00):

And as long as everyone speaks to each other in a respectful way, because we’ve all got to work with each other, we spend a lot of time with each other, and we’re not always going to be in this situation. So, we’re not always going to be sat around this meeting room table having a discussion about this problem. We might be stood at the bar, having a drink with each other at the Christmas party. And so, therefore, we’ve got to be in a position where we can look each other in the eye and look out for each other. So, I think you’ve got to deal with matters honestly. You’ve got to front them up. But ultimately, you’ve got to be looking for the positives. So, how do we make it better? How do we not let this happen again?

Peter Jackson (32:37):

Does the approach differ between dealing with your people and dealing with clients when things aren’t what they should be?

Dan Booth (32:47):

I don’t think so. The way we conduct ourselves in this business with each other, it almost becomes… you’re subconscious that that’s how you deal with the outside world. How we communicate with each other internally shouldn’t be any different than how we communicate with each other externally. Obviously, we’re a professional business. And the conversations you’re having with a client are different to what you would have with somebody who’s sat across the desk from you. But ultimately, how we think of them and how we approach situations with them, having honest conversations with them are just the same. There’s been many, a piece of work that we haven’t taken on, because we’ve had honest conversations with people.

(33:31):

They’ve given us an honest answer. And I’ve looked at it and gone, we’re probably going to end up worse than when we started here. So, before we get involved in this case, we’re not going to do it. Or if we are going to do it, we’re going to do it this way. And again, everyone’s entitled to their own opinion and the client goes, I don’t want it doing that way. And we go, well, I’m trying to… Again, going back to looking on the long term, I’m thinking a couple of shots in front and this is a problem. We are going to have a difficult conversation and we might not be able to reverse out of it. So, before we go down there, let’s just have the conversation. And if everyone’s fine with it, then we’ll go. And if people aren’t fine with it, we won’t.

Sean Lightfoot (34:15):

Walk away.

Dan Booth (34:16):

Yeah, it’s so important.

Sean Lightfoot (34:18):

Thinking about a bit wider then, outside, I suppose people and clients directly, is part of being better setting up the Leonard Curtis Foundation?

Dan Booth (34:28):

100%. That idea came probably five years ago now. As you guys will do, we get asked a lot to put a full ball in for a charity golf day, take a table at a dinner, which we still do by the way. But we were getting to a size where we felt as though it would be really important that we support charities. That means something to our people, because quite often… And every charity’s worth supporting, but our people don’t get to choose. So, our view as well, why can’t we support charities that are close to people’s hearts that are in this business? If we set a foundational, then we can create some feeling amongst everybody about keeping people included, and involved, and we can do that.

Sean Lightfoot (35:14):

Fantastic.

Peter Jackson (35:15):

Good. In terms of being better, you’ve recently done a deal. You referred to it recently. Do you want to tell us a bit about that and the journey on your financing over the last few years?

Dan Booth (35:25):

Yeah. So, we have just recently done a private equity deal with Pollen Street Capital in August, who we’ve known for a number of years, actually. Take you back to 2020. I’ve just taken over as chief exec or managing partner at the time. I went to see Sam and Lord at Altium in early 2020 before COVID. And we talked about what the options we could have. We had a number of shareholders in the business. And I was keen to encourage succession and bring other people through, but we had a shareholder base that quite fixed. They’d not had any return, and therefore we probably needed to create a capital event for people to be more willing to dilute the position. So, I went to see Simon. We had a conversation about what we may or may not be able to do. COVID came, shelved it.

(36:13):

During that period, we then had a number of unsolicited approaches for the business, because people I think thought once we’re on the other side of the pandemic, insolvencies are going to skyrocket. So, we had a number of approaches. We weren’t particularly interested in those. But we did speak to Pollen Street at the time. They’re very similar tools in the way they think. And the reality is you do business with people you like and you trust. And they were the perfect fit for us at that time. They co-invested with Zivella, which was Andrew Tinkler’s investment vehicle, ex chief exec of Stobart’s. And that worked really well, because you had some kind of operator knowledge and some professional advisor knowledge as well.

Peter Jackson (37:01):

And Mike Fletcher’s at Retina Partners, isn’t he?

Dan Booth (37:04):

Yes. Yeah. So, that worked really well for us. So, that happened in August ‘21. We grew the business from there. We started looking about 18 months ago and saying, right, okay, we… I was very mindful that I wanted to get them a return on their investment. And we probably attracted the business in such a way that we could look at private equity. Went out to the advisor market, spoke to lots and lots of people. But I have a saying that maybe people think is quite funny, but water always finds its own level in the end. And we spoke to lots and lots of PERSs, but ended up back with Pollen Street. And I think that worked really well, because they’d seen us in 2020. They’d seen what we said we were going to do. Come back in 2024, 2025-

Sean Lightfoot (37:55):

Achieved it.

Dan Booth (37:55):

… and the same, we’d done exactly that. And they’re great people, good people to work with. You just know when people have a similar view and outlook to you. Pollen are a great fund to work with. And I think for the next three to five years, they’re the perfect partner and perfect fit for us.

Peter Jackson (38:17):

So, what’s the plan then over that three to five years?

Dan Booth (38:20):

We’ll try and double the business again. So, that’s what we did from ‘21 to ‘24. So, we’ll try and get the business up to 75 million revenue, make 25 million of EBITDA. But probably more important than that, we have a number of objectives in the business. One of it’s to be three star best companies. Contribute to three times as many charities as we have done in ‘25. Look at AI, embrace tech. You’ve got to be careful with it. I like an AI to fire. It’s really useful. It can cook your tea, it can keep you warm, but it could probably be quite-

Peter Jackson (39:00):

[inaudible 00:39:00] goes wrong.

Dan Booth (39:01):

Exactly that. So, we’ve got to be careful with that.

Sean Lightfoot (39:03):

Absolutely.

Dan Booth (39:05):

And our view is if we deliver the eight objectives, the ninth objective of achieving the financial results, that’s the byproduct of all those other… engaging with our client base better, making sure we’re compliant, looking at an M&A strategy. The financials almost come as a result of doing all those things very well.

Peter Jackson (39:31):

Yeah. People first philosophy and action, isn’t it?

Dan Booth (39:34):

It is. You’ve just got to do that. You’ve got to trust in the process, that the brand, what we stand for is strong and people know what we doing, how we do it. We still have to remind people where we get our clients from. You’ve got to go out and you’ve got to acquire them as clients. And well, we don’t have clients, but we have referrers of clients. So, you’ve got to acquire your referrers of work. You then have to engage with them, tell them what you do and how you do it. And then ultimately, you’ve got to try and monetize them. You’ve got to try and then get them to trust you and give you some work. And then you have to repeat the process over, and over, and over again.

(40:17):

So, you’ve got a trusted brand, that the brand is strong enough and the work that you are doing means you’re going to get more work out of those people. And then you have to make sure you’ve got the right people in the right positions to do the work that they enjoy doing, because they’re really good at it. And if you’re doing those things, in theory, the rest of it should follow.

Peter Jackson (40:37):

Yeah. Well, good luck with that.

Dan Booth (40:40):

Thank you.

Peter Jackson (40:40):

We’re coming to the end, I think. Time’s going to be against us, so thank you very much for coming in.

Dan Booth (40:44):

No problem.

Peter Jackson (40:45):

But what do you do to look after yourself? What’s going on when you’re not working? Because the CEO always has to. How can you lead others if you don’t look after yourself?

Dan Booth (40:55):

Yeah, exactly that. I coach a junior football team. My lab plays in that, so I’ve had them since the under fives, under sixes, the under fourteens, under fifteens now. So, I enjoy that, because you do the training with them. And in the hour, I don’t think about anything else, really. Do a lot of walking, have some of my best ideas when I’m out walking. Slightly antisocial, but on my own as I like that. Because I think that’s really important that you do that. But there’s not a great deal of time really. I know you could always make some time, but I enjoy doing that. Watch a bit of sport. We had a result yesterday.

Peter Jackson (41:33):

Did we?

Dan Booth (41:34):

We did. I don’t think you did.

Peter Jackson (41:39):

Thanks for coming.

Dan Booth (41:40):

But no. So, I think that’s really important.

Peter Jackson (41:42):

Got to have some non-negotiables, haven’t you, that you do whatever?

Dan Booth (41:45):

Yeah. It’s really important that you do that.

Peter Jackson (41:47):

Excellent. Well, keep doing that.

Dan Booth (41:48):

Thank you.

Peter Jackson (41:49):

Keep doing that.

Dan Booth (41:49):

I will.

Peter Jackson (41:50):

And again, thank you very much for coming in.

Dan Booth (41:51):

No problem.

Peter Jackson (41:52):

You’ve been very honest about your business. We wish you every success.

Dan Booth (41:54):

No problem.

Peter Jackson (41:55):

Come back and tell us that you’ve done it when you’ve done it.

Dan Booth (41:57):

I will do. Thank you. Thank you very much.

Peter Jackson (42:06):

So, Sean, we’ve just finished with Dan. So, what were your initial observations?

Sean Lightfoot (42:12):

Really interesting conversation. And good to hear his story from where he started and CEO 25 years later. And obviously, the deals he’s gone through. The things that resonated with me are, I really liked his dichotomy between not everyone wants a career. So, there’s people who wants a job and people who want a career. And you’ve got to support them both. And I think that really applies to people in our business as well. And we do well to remember that sometimes as well and keep that at the forefront of our minds. The other thing that resonated with me is a young-ish partner in the business is imposter syndrome, and how he uses that as a tool to keep it on his toes, and push forward, and question yourself, and be quite self-aware of your actions, and how you contribute to the business.

Peter Jackson (42:58):

Yeah. No, I recognise both of those. Just on the latter point on imposter syndrome. I think on a previous show somebody asked me, “Did you suffer for that?” And I said, “Every day.” But it’s interesting since it’s 18 months now since I stepped down from the role of CEO. And that distance, that time distance certainly has enabled me to look back and think, do you know, we did all right. And maybe the eternal worry I had about was I good enough, was I in the right job, someone’s going to find me out one day, actually was probably unjustified, but you don’t see it when you’re in the middle of it. And that’s a difficulty. On your first points about job and career, I think that’s really interesting. And I love the way he explained that dichotomy.

(43:47):

And I think it’s probably one that’s going to be more relevant in the generations that are just starting to work in professional service firms in particular, where we are seeing less of a desire to make a career and more of a desire to have a job on their own terms.

Sean Lightfoot (44:08):

Absolutely.

Peter Jackson (44:09):

And there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. As I say, it’s no judgement , it’s not a criticism on my part, but I think that will lead to certain changes in how professional service firms have to run. The management of that mindset is very different to the management of a go-getter who wants to work all the hours God sends and wants to drive themselves up the business. It’s very, very different. And also, if that is then allied to risk-taking, does it mean that the partnership structure is going to be less relevant for generations like you to come? Is the partnership model going to be the right one for you?

Sean Lightfoot (44:46):

Well, it’s an interesting debate, isn’t it? And you see obviously private equity moving into law firms now and that will necessitate changes in structures, in legal firms structures generally. It all feeds through to what we were talking about, succession, longevity, and how you put in place a structure now that fits with modern views of people, and the people culture going forward. So, it will be very interesting to see how that plays out. And ultimately, law firms, us, me, we have to adapt and adapt to the kind of attitudes of the wider workforce. So, it will be interesting. One question I’ve got for yourself is we talked about imposter syndrome, you just touched upon it there, is we asked Dan about what he enjoyed about being a leader. What did you enjoy when you were CEO?

Peter Jackson (45:35):

Yeah. Never trust the leader who says he or she enjoyed every minute, because they’re lying, because bad things happen, don’t they? People die, things go wrong, businesses struggle. But for me, I’d give exactly the same answer in terms that Dan gave. And it is about the people. It’s about bringing people on, developing them. There’s nothing more satisfying when you see somebody come through the business from trainees, we call them now, don’t we? Article clerks in my day and make partner. And it’s clearly been their lifelong ambition to get to that stage. And you see how proud they are and all that goes with that. That’s a really satisfying situation, because as the leader, you’ve played a part in that.

(46:21):

You’ve encouraged it, you’ve motivated it, you’ve developed it. And I think also, tying it in with his tales from COVID. Another great factor I think, and I certainly felt privileged to be a part of, was building a culture whereby your people trust you. You’ll remember during COVID, as Dan explained in the early stages of 2020, we didn’t have a clue what was going on, let’s be honest. None of us had ever managed through this before. Yes, I’d managed through recessions, I’d managed through credit crunches, but I never managed through a health crisis like this was. And we stopped budgeting, and we were working on a weekly roll in budget, and all that sort of stuff.

(47:00):

But we recognised very early on that we had to cut costs inevitably, because we didn’t know whether there was going to be any business. And we asked our people to take a 25% drop in their immediate earnings, but still to work five days a week. And we couldn’t do that lawfully, unless we had 100% consent. We would’ve had to have a consultation process under employment legislation. And that would’ve taken us months and we’d have struggled. And we got total unanimous sign up to that very, very quickly. And yeah, okay, one or two people had to be persuaded as you would expect, but at the end of the day we were able to do it because our people trusted us. And that’s a pretty great feeling when you see that happen. As the leader, you think, yeah, that’s okay.

Sean Lightfoot (47:47):

It’s interesting, because that trust was obviously solidified later when obviously that was kind of repaid.

Peter Jackson (47:54):

Absolutely. Well, we said to them at the time, as soon as we are in a position to pay it back, we will do, which we did. We gave a commitment that would be no redundancies, whatever the situation was for six months. After that, if we’re still in it, then we are all in trouble, aren’t we? So, all better off. But we stuck to that. And what we did was we calculated what it had cost us to keep people in jobs and top people up to make sure that they were getting a decent return until we could give them their money back. And there was a sizable sum over and we gave it to our people, to our staff. Not the partners, the staff. And there were no ranks in that. They all got a share of the money that was left over. And I think that was the right thing to do. And as you say, that repaid to them their trust in us at an earlier stage.

Sean Lightfoot (48:41):

And I suppose that goes back to Dan’s three Cs, in terms of being consistent, being committed. And now the last one I forget.

Peter Jackson (48:50):

Yeah. But I think it goes to our own values as well, because trust and respect to absolute key bedrock on which we built our business. And our people trusted us and we showed them the right respect. That enabled us to get through the pandemic intact, in fact, very successfully in business terms. And was a great platform for the success we’ve had over the last four or five years. And that’s down to the people. And I think Dan got it absolutely right. Your first port of call is your people. Get your people stuff right and the rest follows. And that’s what he said. And I think that same is true for us.

Sean Lightfoot (49:24):

Definitely. Definitely.