Insights from a cricket captain and trainee sports psychologist

Peter Jackson: If you’ve ever run a business, team or an organisation, then you’ll know about 3:00 AM conversations. I’m talking about those times when you’ve had to ask yourselves the really hard questions. Can I do this? Am I good enough? And what do I really want? I’m Peter Jackson and in my time as the CEO of law firm Hill Dickinson, I’ve had a fair few of those moments myself [00:00:30] and as a coach and mentor, I’ve guided many people through them.

In this podcast, you’re going to hear from high achievers about their own 3:00 AM Conversations and you’ll be able to apply their insights to your own life. In this episode, you’ll meet professional cricketer Ellie Threlkeld. Now Ellie is the captain of the women’s cricket team North West Thunder and she achieved sporting success from a young age making her senior debut aged only 14. [00:01:00] She was made captain of Thunder aged 23 and is now also a trainee sports psychologist. So what’s it like to be leading an elite sports team from such a young age and what are the things that keep Ellie up at night? You’ll find out soon. But first, let’s hear from my co-host Joanne Radcliffe. Joanne is a partner in our Manchester office and a family law solicitor.

Joanne Radcliff: Hi Peter, really glad to be here [00:01:30] and thank you very much for inviting me.

Peter Jackson: Now, Joanne, you are here to provide a different perspective on 3:00 AM conversations, but first let’s find out a little bit about you. So what’s a day in the life for you at Hill Dickinson?

Joanne Radcliff: Well, I think the beauty of being a family lawyer is that no day is ever quite the same. So some days I might be drafting a prenuptial agreement or going to court being at a negotiation or just helping supervising and mentoring our team members.

Peter Jackson: [00:02:00] So how did you get into law in the first place?

Joanne Radcliff: Well, law for me was a bit of an abstract concept in the early days. As I think you know, Peter, I went to fairly underprivileged school. So there wasn’t much in the way of career guidance and certainly didn’t know any lawyers growing up. I think the most exposure I’d ever had to law, when I was a teenager was Ally McBeal. And it’s pretty fair to say that wasn’t an accurate portrayal of what life in a law firm was going to be like. I think I just thought that I might have the right skills. I like the idea of looking at situations from [00:02:30] different perspectives and trying to use persuasive arguments one way or the other. And so that led me to law.

Peter Jackson: Brilliant. The avoidance of doubt, LA Law wasn’t a real depiction of life in a law firm either, but there we go. Now turning to today’s podcast, have you ever had a 3:00 AM conversation yourself?

Joanne Radcliff: Oh, I have 3:00 AM conversations all the time. I think most people, I suffer from imposter syndrome from time to time and I do find myself [00:03:00] waking up in the middle of the night wondering about the decisions I’ve made as a manager, as a leader, and also about the kind of difficult cases I have and how to solve problems for clients. It happens more than I wish it did.

Peter Jackson: Inevitably. It’s always interesting, isn’t it, to hear from people who are at the top of their game like Ellie is. So what were you most looking forward to discovering about her before we actually met Ellie?

Joanne Radcliff: Well, as someone who I have to admit does not follow cricket at all, I [00:03:30] wasn’t interested from necessarily a sporting perspective, but I think it’s super interesting what motivates successful people and how someone like her at a very young age is able to lead a team. So that was really what I was interested to hear about.

Peter Jackson: It’s time for you to hear from our guest, professional cricketer and captain of North West Thunder, Ellie Threlkeld. Before you hear about Ellie’s 3:00 AM conversations. We went back a little [00:04:00] to the moment that she first realised that she had a talent for cricket.

Ellie Threlkeld: I’ve played cricket and probably all sports since I was really young to be honest. I’ve got an older brother and he wanted a brother so he could play sport in the garden with him and unfortunately he got a sister, but that sort of didn’t change and grew up playing all sports with him. He was a cricketer and footballer. So I did the same and yeah, probably from the age of nine I reckon I sort of started taking it a bit [00:04:30] more seriously and played football for Liverpool and cricket for Lancashire at that age and did them two sports right the way through till I was 18 and had to make a decision then between cricket and football and chose cricket.

Peter Jackson: Quite right, quite right. So why cricket and not football?

Ellie Threlkeld: To be honest, I always, it’s going to sound bad. I always loved football more and I wanted to be a footballer, but I think my ability made the decision for me. I decided to go with cricket, but it’s probably one of the [00:05:00] toughest decisions I’ve ever had to make to step away from Liverpool because you’re obviously a massive Liverpool fan. It’s the pride thing. It hurt a lot and my dad’s a massive Liverpool fan brother is as well. And to sort of step away from that dream almost, if you like, it was pretty tough. But like I said, cricket was going pretty well at the time and it’s all worked out well in the end.

Peter Jackson: Excellent. I do recall you made your Lancashire debut when you were very, very young as well. It was about 14.

Ellie Threlkeld: That sounds about right. Yeah.

Peter Jackson: Step up from club to county.

Ellie Threlkeld: Sounds about right. And I think [00:05:30] at the time women’s cricket wasn’t as big as it is now, so I think it was quite normal for people to make the debut at about that age. Obviously now we’ve got a more professional setup and there’s a lot more of a pathway to lead into playing in the first team. That doesn’t happen as often. But yeah, I was pretty young, but I think I’m a better player and a better person for doing it that young. I think I learned a lot in them years as a bit of a youngster playing with some pretty experienced cricketers and I think that did wonders for my character and yeah, I’ve been [00:06:00] part of that sort of setup ever since. So it’s been good.

Joanne Radcliff: Clearly women’s sport is growing generally across the board, whether it’s cricket or football, but I was just interested in your insight into why you think women don’t take up sport as much. What are the barriers that you are seeing that are preventing more young women going into sport?

Ellie Threlkeld: I think from personal experience, there were when I was younger, quite a lot of barriers just in terms of I was probably the only person in my class who did sport and I was [00:06:30] having to get changed in the toilets and I’d turn up and there’d be comments being like, “Oh, there’s a girl playing.” And all of that sort of stuff, I think it can probably get to people. I think particularly cricket, it is quite hard to make cricket cool sometimes, innit? I remember walking around uni with a big cricket bag and I was like, oh God, you can just see why sometimes females drop out. And I think at the time I was almost a bit embarrassed at times that I was playing sport. I never used to tell anyone what I was doing. I remember being at primary school and no one knew [00:07:00] I played football for Liverpool, no one.

And you’d think growing up playing football for Liverpool, it’s a pretty cool achievement. You think people would tell, you’d want to tell people, but I was so embarrassed because I just wanted to be normal, I just wanted to fit in. And at the time that wasn’t really normal and I didn’t feel like I fit in, but I’d like to think now that that is completely different. I don’t know because I’m not a young kid anymore, but I think the more women’s sports growing at the top level, you’ve seen it a lot with football, you seen it a lot with cricket at the minute as well. And [00:07:30] I think each sport’s having a knock-on effect on the other sports, which is amazing. And I think-

Joanne Radcliff: Presumably having professional teams is a big part of that. Young girls being able to see professional sportswomen.

Ellie Threlkeld: I see that as part of our job is to try and try and make cricket cool, try and inspire the next generation. It’s like, so if we can entertain people then that’s something we speak about a lot. And if we can do that by trying to be a good role model and set examples through behaviour and being a good professional athlete and stuff, I think we won’t be going far wrong from being a good team. [00:08:00] I think if we think about doing that we’ll do a lot of things really well. So yeah, I’d like to think women’s sport now is in a really good place and people often say to me, “Would you like to be a young kid again now?” And obviously I would because all the opportunities now are amazing. But I also, I’m so glad I’ve been on this journey that I’ve been on because I’ve been a part of it’s been quite special.

It’s not been easy and it’s not been, the opportunities are there now, but they never used to be. But actually by seeing [00:08:30] that and going on that journey, it’s been pretty special. And I’d like to, I think at the end of my career I’ll be pretty proud of what I’ve been through and it’ll be really nice to see younger girls having them opportunities and I think I know a lot of other people at the same as well. It’s like right now we can pave the way for the next generation and that’s really special.

Peter Jackson: Tell me more about the Bat For Women’s Cricket campaign.

Ellie Threlkeld: Yeah, I think that was a brilliant initiative launch to get more women and girls involved in the sport and you’re seeing campaigns running like that quite a lot now. And I think [00:09:00] it’s brilliant because cricket is a sport for everyone and the women’s game’s growing and I think the more things like that people are doing and can do, I think the better really and just getting more girls involved and it’s so exciting now that these girls have got a career prospect with it as well. When I was a kid I loved sport and it was a hobby and then all of a sudden overnight I became a professional cricketer and I think it was really unexpected and obviously brilliant, but actually now young girls are starting out with that as the goal and that as a realistic [00:09:30] career option. So it’s brilliant.

Peter Jackson: Now the final bit of information about you, which is, it probably explains why the 3:00 AM conversations were easy to identify. Were you are a trainee psychologist?

Ellie Threlkeld: Yes, yes. Trainee.

Peter Jackson: Tell me more about that.

Ellie Threlkeld: I sort of messed my A-levels up a little bit and at the time there was no professional cricket in Manchester for me, so the only real option to carry on doing cricket was to go to Loughborough University because they had an unbelievable programme there that [00:10:00] allowed you to train like a professional athlete, but also obviously you’re at uni, so study as well at the same time. So in my head I was like, I’ve got to go to Loughborough. I was always a little bit more maths orientated rather than the writing side. So I picked three or four courses I would’ve done at Loughborough and missed out on them through messing my A Levels up and not quite meeting the grade boundaries. And there was one course that would’ve let me on and it was psychology. I’d never studied psychology in my life, but I thought as well, I’ve got no other option [00:10:30] here. I’m going to have to go and do it because I wanted to go to Loughborough.

So I’ll come out with a degree as well. Perfect. So I was going there for the cricket really and then ended up sort enjoying studying it. All I’d ever known at this point was sort be a student athlete if you like. So after I finished my degree I was like, what now? I wanted to do something else and at this point it was sort of in the middle of COVID as well. I had a lot of time on my hands, so decided to do a masters in sports psychology, did that as a distance learning course. [00:11:00] So I was able to do that in my own time, which was pretty nice to fit around cricket. And then again after that I finished and I was like, right what next? I’m a little bit sort of all or nothing in everything I do, as a character as well and if I started something I’m going to finish it off. And that’s what I thought I was like, I may as well not waste what I’ve done up to now and do it.

And now doing what’s called, well it’s called qualification in sport and exercise psychology and it’s almost the equivalent of a PhD, but you don’t get the nice doctoral title at the end, which is unfortunate [00:11:30] but it’s more practical based. So I’m doing a lot of applied practise with a supervisor at the minute, which is brilliant, because it’s allowed me to work in different sports and work with different athletes, which is really refreshing. So it’s something that I’ve got on the side of cricket and I think I’m quite a big advocate for that because I think it’s quite easy to get really wrapped up in your sport and place everything, all your eggs in one basket if you like. But I think it’s quite good for me, I’m not very good at switching off, but actually to go and do something else is sort of [00:12:00] my way of switching off and getting away from the game. So I do think it helps me and it’s something I’m really enjoying doing. So yeah, it’s going pretty well.

Peter Jackson: Excellent. Well talking of not being able to switch off, let’s move on to the 3:00 AM conversations and with that background obviously your ability to identify those conversations was excellent because we got several, I may say so. I’m going to try and group them together and see where they take us. So the first one I think really [00:12:30] is about hard conversations, difficult conversations, and you identified the problem there as being team selection. You’ve talked almost lovingly of the group, your team and as you put it, how do I drop some of my best friends and worrying what they will think about you and how do you do it? How comfortable are you with that?

Ellie Threlkeld: Yeah, it’s something that I’ve found really hard to be honest. I think, I’m in my third year of captaincy now. But yeah, [00:13:00] I think my personality type, I’m really people-orientated and I think that’s a massive strength of mine. And I think trying to get to know the group as best I can and trying to see everyone as individuals and I have to deal with people in different ways and I think it’s a strength of mine, something I’ve developed and got better at, but it’s also can be a massive weakness when you’re really people-orientated is actually you’ve got to make some decisions sometimes that with the team winning games of cricket in mind, but it’s difficult and having [00:13:30] a part in selection and knowing that you potentially contributing to dropping one of your mates or having to have a difficult conversation with somebody about cricket or their attitude or there’s numerous things really, but they’re the things I find really tough and I probably overthink at times and like you said, I’m always worried about what other people are thinking of me.

But I think it’s come a little bit easier this year I would say with more experience. And yeah, I’ve had conversations with a lot of people to try and help [00:14:00] and get better at this sort of stuff. And I think it’s something that it’s not just in sport, it’s in general life as well. A lot of people, I spoke to our CEO here and he said it makes the same in business, it’s the same in everything. My mom used to be a head teacher and she was the same. She said leadership sometimes it can be a pretty lonely place. It sort of comes with part of the role. But yeah, it’s not just in sport. I think then sort of difficult conversations, it is everyday life and I think that’s where actually what I’m doing at the minute in sports setting me up really well [00:14:30] for later on in life.

And I think just finding my way of doing it as well. I think it’s just trying to be authentic and I think the girls know I find that difficult as well. And I think knowing that from their end as well, if I’m having to say something to them, then maybe they’ll take a step back and be like, oh actually Ellie’s found that quite hard to have that conversation with me, which might help. But yeah, I think just the more I do it, the better I’m getting, but it’s something I still find pretty difficult.

Peter Jackson: You talk about finding your way of doing [00:15:00] it. What is your way of doing it? How do you put it into context?

Ellie Threlkeld: I think I’m a pretty positive person and I think using that is really key because often if you’re speaking to somebody who’s struggling or even the selection thing, it’s like you can still reinforce what they’re really good at, even if someone’s going through a tough time with cricket, it’s a very, very horrible sport at times when you’re out form or it’s a pretty brutal game. And sometimes, as a batter for example, if you’re [00:15:30] struggling for runs, it feels like you’re never going to score a run again. But actually you’re only one innings away, one shot away sometimes from being back. And I think just helping other players ride that wave that you are on sometimes as well and just reinforcing what they’re good at. And that actually sometimes a bit of perspective as well. Sometimes again, when you’re in the moment and you think, oh, I am really struggling for form or whatever, it feels like that’s all that matters.

But actually when you take a step back, yes, you’re a cricketer and it’s your job and there’s a lot [00:16:00] of pressure on you, but actually there’s more important things in life and you still a good person, a good friend, a good daughter, a good whatever, whatever. And taking a bit of a step back and having a bit of perspective can help sometimes. And my supervisor actually for my sports site qualification used this analogy once and she was like, “We’re both on a mountain, but sometimes from where I am on my mountain I can see a different path for you and that’s why I’m here just to help you navigate your mountain.” She said, “I don’t know all the answers.” And that really [00:16:30] sort of run true with me a little bit and I think that’s something I think about a lot when I speak to other people because again, I’ve not got all the answers, I’m studying sports psychology, but I still struggle with the mental side of the game.

But actually if I can help other players just by giving them a bit of perspective or like I said before, telling them what they’re good at and trying to reinforce some of them things from a different angle, I think it can help players.

Peter Jackson: Do you think you’ve got the respect of your teammates in that sense? It sounds like you’ve really nailed it, but do you feel that way?

Ellie Threlkeld: [00:17:00] I’d like to think I have. Yeah, I think that’s something. When I very first started, I think I was trying really hard to get everyone to like me. And I think the difference between being liked and respected is different. I think I now know that not everyone is going to like me or like certain things like what I do and I might not be everyone’s cup of tea to socialise with, but I’m okay with that now. And I think at the start I was desperate to make a really good impression on everyone as a leader and I was desperate for everyone to really like me as a person. [00:17:30] But actually I’ve realised, the more I’ve done it, my main job is to help us win games of cricket and that’s what I’ve got to put first.

And I think, actually we spoke a bit about tough conversations. If I’m honest and as honest as I can be, then that’s where you get the respect of the group rather than sometimes if you’re trying too hard to be liked, you can sugarcoat messages and you can almost be too positive in a way and not get what you want to get across, across. And actually that’s where you lose people’s respect. So as much as I find [00:18:00] them conversations tough, I also know that by doing it properly and sometimes it might not be what they want hear and I might find that difficult, but they’ll thank me for it later down the line and the group will thank me for it as well.

Peter Jackson: Yeah. You talk there about wanting to be liked when you went into the job, did you expect to be made captain? Do you think you should be captain?

Ellie Threlkeld: It’s something I’ve always, always wanted to do.

Peter Jackson: That’s a different question.

Ellie Threlkeld: Yeah. I think it happened quicker than I thought it would’ve done. I’d like to think I’m a natural leader. [00:18:30] I think I pride myself on my attitude and my behaviours and the way I go about things. And I think people talk about different leadership styles. I’d probably say that’s where my strength is. I think I was pretty young when I got the captaincy, I was 23, I think. So I think it happened quicker than I expected, but when I got told I was absolutely buzzing and I was like, right, I’m ready. And I felt confident in myself that I was ready. I remember Kate Cross, one of our senior players saying to me, “Mate, no [00:19:00] one’s ever ready to be a captain, but I couldn’t think of anyone better to lead this group forward.” And for her to say that I was like, oh, that really made me feel like for someone so senior who’s played so many games for England to say that to me that almost gave me all the confidence I needed.

That was something I was thinking about as well. I was like when I got made captain, I was a little bit like, oh, you always doubt yourself a little bit and you’re like, oh, there’s a lot of people in this group who’ve played a lot of cricket and they’re picking me. And I was a bit like, oh. So for her to [00:19:30] say that just filled me with confidence. And yeah, I felt at that point I was like, I think I am ready. I knew I had loads to learn tactically and that’s something I’ve really embraced and almost been vulnerable with that and said, “Look, I want you… “. I’ve said to the coaches, “I want you to tell me everything. I want you to give me as much information as possible. I’m desperate to get better.”

Being vulnerable enough in front of the dressing room to admit when I’ve made mistakes. I think obviously no one’s perfect and when I got the role, I obviously wasn’t going to be perfect. I’d [00:20:00] never really done it before and just embracing trying to get better and trying to learn. So I think I felt like I was ready from a personal point of view, but maybe from a tactical cricket side of things, I knew I had a lot to learn. And I think I’ve done that, I think I’ve learned loads and tried to apply it as best I can. And I think if you compare my tactical awareness now to when I started, it’s miles apart and I still am aware that there’s a long way to go. But I think, yeah, I’ve learned loads and it’s been a pretty good journey so far.

Peter Jackson: You [00:20:30] mentioned that when you came in as captain, you had some pretty big names in the team, Emma Lamb, Kate Cross, Alex Hartley, Sophie Ecclestone, all England players, all internationals. And you also said, to put it in context, that a lot of what you described as your leadership technique was as relevant in business as it is in sport. What I’m talking about here is what we would call managing upwards. So as a CEO, I had to manage my board. [00:21:00] To get my own way, I had to make sure that I warmed them up, that I persuaded them, that I used logic or temper or whatever it was to make sure I drove the business forward in the right way. So how have you managed a group of England stars as a 23-year-old new captain?

Ellie Threlkeld: Yeah, I think it was very difficult at the start because I felt like I had almost imposter syndrome. I was like, who am I to be telling these players what to do? I was like, [00:21:30] I can’t manage these. I almost felt like they should be captain when they come back and I’ll just sit to the side or whatever. But I think it was made easier when, for example, Kate Cross said that to me about she thinks there’s no one better to take the team forward. I was like, oh, that was really nice to hear. And I think it almost showed that I’ve got the respect, which was obviously good. And I think I’m pretty blessed here with the England players got, they really want to play for us when they’re available„ because the club means a lot [00:22:00] to them. Kate Cross, Emma Lamb, Sophie Ecclestone, they’ve grown up playing for this club for a very long time, so they really want to be here when they are here, which is brilliant.

And the girls love them being around and I think they bring their experience as well. And actually more so in the early days, they really helped me out as captain and they helped me learn on the pitch as well. So I think it was brilliant. I think now I’m a bit more self-assured of my own tactical knowledge is that actually [00:22:30] I probably don’t need the help as much now, but that’s not to say that when they give me an idea I dismiss it. I absolutely want as much help as possible. But yeah, I’m pretty good friends with them all as well, which helps.

You just talked about persuasion then I think Sophie Ecclestone is one of my best mates off the field and she’s obviously one of the best players in the world at the minute playing a lot of cricket. And quite often she’s been given a bit of rest and I take her out for a coffee and tell her how good it’s been playing for Lancashire and trying to get her to play. So I’ve definitely used that a few times, [00:23:00] buy her a coffee and that. But no, they’ve been brilliant and I think we’re quite a tight-knit group as well, which helps. And I’d like to think that cricket aside, they like spending time around the group, which is good. But yeah, definitely a bit of imposter syndrome at the time.

Joanne Radcliff: You’ve talked a lot about making those tough conversations work with players. How does it feel for you when you’re in that moment though and having those kind of perhaps negative reactions? How do you cope with that?

Ellie Threlkeld: [00:23:30] I think just almost thinking about the end goal at the start, if that makes sense. So I think before I even start a conversation, I need to know what I need to get to by the end, if that makes sense. So I to know what I want to get out of this conversation. And then it’s almost like, obviously I’m winging the bit in between and trying to navigate the conversation, but it’s just trying to make sure I reach that end goal. If I know someone’s going to be really emotional when I’m talking to them, it might take a little bit longer to get to [00:24:00] the point, but that’s fine. It might take a little bit of time to first of all talk about what’s going really well for them before we talk about the difficult stuff. Or actually I might think, you know what, I’m just going to say it and then deal with the consequences later.

And I feel like probably a case by case basis and sometimes it’s gone better than others. But yeah, I think it’s, I always think trying to be as positive as I can, even when I’m delivering a message. And I’ve tried to work quite hard on my communication [00:24:30] as well. And I remember we did this personality profiling thing, which really helped me because it was like you got given one of four colours, that was your preference. So mine was like, I’m green. So that’s really people orientated, quite caring and care a lot about other people. The reds were quite direct, so if I know I’m speaking to a red, the last thing they want is for me to be like, “Oh, you’re doing really well at this at the minute.” And actually they just want me to go bang, go straight in and tell them exactly [00:25:00] what I need to say.

Someone who’s a blues, very logical. So actually if I’m speaking to someone like that, maybe do I need to give a bit more reasoning behind what I’m saying or try and make my communication to suit them. So I need to try and put my blue hat on and be a little bit more logical in that way. And yellows are just sort of really extroverted, fun-loving. They’re the people who’ll probably really value my positivity and maybe if I have a bit of a laugh with them first or make something into a joke or… So I’ve tried [00:25:30] to, and I found that really helpful actually to know what other people’s preferences are. I think maybe was guilty of, okay, how would I want this message to be delivered? But actually it’s not about me, it’s about them and they’re not me. So trying to understand them a little bit more I think has really helped.

So yeah, that was really good and I think it sort of brought the group closer together when we did that as well. And I even benefited knowing the staff’s colours as well. So yeah, that was really helpful. So just trying to tailor my communication to that individual really.

Joanne Radcliff: [00:26:00] So there’s some psychology behind what you’re doing really day-to-day?

Ellie Threlkeld: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

Joanne Radcliff: You are clearly very successful. You’ve been a bit of a trailblazer, a lot of success very young, but you’re also in a sport where failure is a big part of what you have to experience. When you’re quite a driven person, that must be quite difficult dealing with failure. What do you do to get yourself through those times?

Ellie Threlkeld: Yeah, I think cricket is such [00:26:30] a weird sport where you are almost set up to fail in a way. It’s like you’re dealing with failure more than you’re dealing with success, by a long way. I think people say the best batters in the world have one in four innings where they do well. For me, you’re either dealing with, you have a good day and the team loses or the team wins, but you’ve had a bad day or it’s not very often the team win and you’ve had a good day. So actually you’re probably always dealing with a bit of failure.

And I think as captain, that’s something I’ve found really [00:27:00] hard is I take the team losing really, I take that a lot on my shoulders as well. And then also if you throw a bit of yourself not being successful in there, it can really spiral and get on top of you really. I’ve found it really helpful to just accept that failure is part of the job. And you’re never going to be successful all the time. Even if we’re losing games, I guarantee there’ll still be positives you can pull out from it and they’re the stuff you’ve got to hang on to and almost try and just learn from [00:27:30] the stuff that’s not going well and take the positive stuff forward.

Joanne Radcliff: Is there anything specific you do for yourself? When you’ve had a shocker of a day, is there something that you do for you that gets you through that a bit of self-care or?

Ellie Threlkeld: Yeah, I feel I struggle to articulate my emotions after a game. I’m pretty emotional, but I don’t show that. So I bottle it all up. I try and be really good around the group and try and sort of get around all my mates and stuff and be that leader that I [00:28:00] want to be. And then if stuff doesn’t go well, like I said, I can be quite emotional, but I know that and accepting that. And then I always make some notes in my phone so when I’m feeling like I need to just get stuff off my mind, I’ll write it down in my phone. And I always laugh with our head coach because I feel like he wants to talk to me about the game after the game, but no words come out my mouth. I’m sat with him and I’m trying to debrief the game and no words come out my mouth.

I’m [00:28:30] like, “I’m really sorry Reedy, but can we chat tomorrow?” But actually when I’ve had a night’s good night’s sleep and I’ve written it all down and I can sort of go back and almost make my thoughts a bit more logical, I can then come in when I’m not emotional and I can talk about whatever I want. He can be as honest with me as he wants and I can accept that I’ve made mistakes then and talk about them rather than I think at the time when they’re quite, emotions quite high and it’s still quite raw, I struggle to talk about it. So yeah, just accepting that and giving myself a bit of time to reflect, which is quite-

Joanne Radcliff: You need that decompression time.

Ellie Threlkeld: Yes, emotional decompression. [00:29:00] Yeah.

Peter Jackson: Moving on to your last 3:00 AM conversation, and you’ve touched on it a couple of times, and I’ll use your words, “Worrying about what other people think of me in my performances.” Does that ring?

Ellie Threlkeld: Yeah.

Peter Jackson: And, “What do they think of me as a leader?” And you’ve touched on it a couple of times, imposter syndrome.

Ellie Threlkeld: Yeah.

Peter Jackson: You’ve almost said you’re over it. Are you really over it?

Ellie Threlkeld: [00:29:30] I think I’m over the imposter syndrome bit. I think I’m a lot more self-assured that what I’m doing is good now. I think at the start I had no confidence in captaincy and I was like, oh, am I doing the right things? I was always questioning myself. On the pitch and off the pitch I was always thinking, should I be doing more? Should I be doing this? Can I be doing more? Should I be doing things differently? Whereas now I feel like, and that was really draining by the way, really draining. Whereas now I feel like I at a point where I back [00:30:00] myself more and I think, you know what? I am doing the right things and if someone’s not happy, I’d like to think they come and speak to me about it. And I think, yeah, the way I’m operating now, it obviously comes with experience, but the more I’m doing it, the more I’m getting used to it. And it’s just sort of second nature in a way.

I definitely have the thing about my own performances still, I’ve had a tough run with the bat at the minute and it’s pretty difficult to lead a group when you are struggling yourself. So for example, the last game we played, [00:30:30] I’ve got no runs again and it’s probably fourth time in a row now I’ve got no runs. And then actually in the next five minutes you’ve got to go out and captain the team on the field and it’s really hard to park the emotions of all you want to do is go in the dressing room and throw your kit everywhere. But actually you’ve got to be able to go out and give the team confidence, give them belief that we’re going to win the game. I’ve got to be the best version of myself when I walk out on that field as wicket-keeper and as captain, I know I’m at my best when I’m wicket-keeping when I’m relaxed.

And [00:31:00] actually if you’ve just got out and you just threw all your kits everywhere in the dressing room, you’re probably not relaxed. So that side of it, I still find quite tough, but I just ask myself, what does the best version of me look like right now? And that’s where I have got a lot better at that. But actually by putting on this big front as captain and trying to almost hide my emotions, it can sometimes come out later. Sometimes I get home and I am just absolutely drained. I can’t even hold the conversation. And I think that comes from [00:31:30] almost, I’m putting on this mask sometimes as captain. And I think, I don’t know whether there’s another way about it, around it really. I feel like it shouldn’t be a weakness to show emotion, don’t get me wrong. But I feel like in that moment it’s like I’ve got to do what’s best for the team. I’ve got to put the team first. I’ve got to be that best version of myself on that field.

And sometimes that is having to deal with failure very, very quickly to then switch it round and go out and do [00:32:00] my other job as captain. And I think almost viewing it as a way of, I can still make so much impact in this game and this team through my captaincy and my wicket-keeping, it’s not just all on my batting, which I’m guilty of because I think keeping comes a lot more natural to me. So I put a lot of pressure on my batting, which probably doesn’t even help my performances, but when I fail at batting, it’s then it’s huge. It’s quite a big blow.

Joanne Radcliff: I’m wondering if when you have periods of failure where perhaps you’ve got a run of games [00:32:30] and they’re not going well, do you find yourself obsessing about that? Is that the kind of thing that wakes you up in the middle of the night or can you move on from it quite quickly?

Ellie Threlkeld: Yeah, I definitely sort of obsess about it, but in a way that’s, how can I fix it? How can I get better? Rather than, I wouldn’t sit there and think too much about the failure, but I’d be thinking, what do I need to do now to perform in the next game? So whether that’s like [00:33:00] having an extra hit, having a chat with one of the coaches on the bus, or I wouldn’t say it’s in an unhealthy way, I struggle to switch my brain off, but it’s more of a like what do I do now to get better?

Joanne Radcliff: And as you’re thinking in those times, is it short term as in I’m just thinking about how I can fix this problem in the next few weeks? Or are you thinking much longer term about your career in general and how it’s going to evolve and where you’re going to end up?

Ellie Threlkeld: Yeah, I think [00:33:30] it’s a lot short term, but I think sometimes it’s so easy to think, oh, there’s another wicket-keeper batter who’s doing really well here. I could be out of a job soon. Actually, and then you might say that out loud and someone will be like, “Oh, [inaudible 00:33:43], that’s just ridiculous.” But actually it’s quite easy to spiral into that thinking. But like I said before, I think I would just like to be able to say after my cricket career, I’ve done absolutely everything I can. And that’s where if I end up losing my job in two years time because [00:34:00] I’ve failed too much, but I’ve done absolutely everything I can up to that point, I think I’ll be pretty content.

Joanne Radcliff: There’s this huge focus on your performance immediately, and you have a relatively short poor runner form and everyone’s focusing on that. Most people in their jobs don’t have to deal with that. They can have an off week, nobody’s really even paying any attention, but everyone’s looking at what you’re doing straight away. That must be quite hard.

Ellie Threlkeld: Yeah, I guess so. I think, I don’t know whether other [00:34:30] people do think this, but in my head I’m judged on how many games we win as captain. So it’s not just the personal form, it’s like the form of the team a little bit as well.

Peter Jackson: You touched on it there, cricket being a mental game as much as a physical game. And the men’s game sadly has been renowned over the years, hasn’t it, for mental health issues and sadder occasions. Have you seen any of that in the women’s game since it got professional?

Ellie Threlkeld: Yeah, definitely I have. And [00:35:00] I think there’s often a link between the two as well. I think the pressure of the job, cricket being a sport with a lot of highs and lows, I think it often can cross over. And I think that’s where I grew up playing cricket and football. The highs and lows of football were nowhere near as what I feel as a cricketer. And it’s like sometimes you’d have an average day on the football pitch and you just come off and you just feel like you’ve had an average day. But I feel like sometimes with cricket, [00:35:30] the good days are brilliant, but the bad days can really make you feel terrible. It’s like a bit of a roller coaster of emotions like playing in a season.

And I was laughing about that actually when we first got back into the cricket season because you spend a winter often in the indoor centre, or I went away for a little bit of the winter, but you spend six months of the year not in competitive cricket sometimes, and you just go in and you’re training and you can see progression and everything’s [00:36:00] good and you’re working hard on your fitness and you’re doing the same things every day. And you’ve got structure Monday to Friday and then all of a sudden, bang, you’re in the season, you’re playing two or three games a week, you’re on the road all the time, you’re living out of a bag, you’re on a bus for more hours than you’re playing cricket. You riding this mental roller coaster of emotions all the time and it’s like you forget what it’s like in the winter and then as soon as you get thrown back in summer, you’re like, oh God, it’s back. The cricket season’s back.

So yeah, I do think cricket’s a [00:36:30] weird sport in that sense where you are either really high or you’re really low. So it’s trying to find ways of trying to maintain a pretty steady level if possible.

Peter Jackson: You’ve talked about having a technical coach. Obviously you’ve got a coach of the team and assistant coach of the team, and a number of times you talk to them about your batting, your keeping whatever. Do you have a coach who helps you with the leadership side? Is there anyone you turn to in those moments where you’re struggling a bit maybe?

Ellie Threlkeld: Yeah, so I’ve been so lucky with this. So [00:37:00] our old head coach, Paul Shaw, who made me captain, his background is in leadership. He’s almost like a mentor to me, which I was really grateful for and a lot of stuff we spoke about the difficult conversations and stuff like that. He was brilliant in that sense and I used to bounce ideas off him all the time and he was amazing. And then our head coach currently Chris Read has played cricket for England and was Captain and wicket-keeper at Nott’s for 10 years. I’ve spent so much time talking to him since and he’s been amazing. And I think [00:37:30] especially from a tactical side as well, that’s where I’ve seen myself really develop. And I think particularly being a wicket-keeper captain as well, it’s not often you get that. And to have that at my disposal every day, it’s like, it’s brilliant. So yeah, I’m sort of trying to get as much out of him as I can while I can. So yeah, I’ve been really lucky in sort of the mentors I’ve had.

Peter Jackson: Ellie, we’ll call a halt there if I may. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you for being so open. [00:38:00] Enjoy your cricket because I think by the time you retire, you’re going to have a fantastic career in business with leadership skills that you are demonstrating. Good luck for the rest of the season.

Ellie Threlkeld: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Peter Jackson: And go well.

Ellie Threlkeld: Yeah, thanks for having me. Really enjoyed it.

Peter Jackson: So that was Ellie Threlkeld, and I’ve got to tell you that when we finished recording, we all, production team included burst into a spontaneous round of applause because she was just so [00:38:30] inspiring to listen to. So Jo, what did you make of our conversation with Ellie?

Joanne Radcliff: I mean, firstly, I am just blown away by the confidence of that young woman, and it’s incredible to see such positivity in her approach to not just cricket, but life in general. I think what I found really insightful was her approach to leadership because I think a lot of us fall into the trap of leading in the way that we would want to do based on our personality and our preferences. And I thought what was great [00:39:00] about Ellie is that she’s adapting her leadership style based on the team that she’s working with. And I think that we could all kind of take her example on that and maybe start to work in the same way. I was also really interested in her acknowledgement that there’s a difference between being liked and being respected. And I think she’s come to that conclusion, again at really quite an early stage of life that really it’s about the latter when you’re a leader.

Peter Jackson: Yeah, I agree with you. I was, [00:39:30] as you say, blown away by the self-confidence she had for someone so young. But also whilst she did confess to having imposter syndrome and being very uncertain at the outset of her captaincy career, she very quickly realised that she could win people’s respect and that she actually had a talent to lead. And she’d picked up on that really, really quickly.

Joanne Radcliff: [00:40:00] Peter, I wonder if there’s any of those 3:00 AM conversations that Ellie mentioned that particularly resonate with you in terms of your experience?

Peter Jackson: Yes, I certainly empathise with how she described difficult conversations. And certainly in the earlier stages of my career as a leader, I found those very, very difficult to position. And obviously in a partnership situation, I was having [00:40:30] difficult conversations with people who I was very close to, in some cases I was friends with. And setting the context for those conversations I found difficult. But over a period of time, I think leaders begin to realise that those conversations are inevitable in business. However close you are to members of your team, to people that you manage, people you’ve been friends with for years, in some cases, the business [00:41:00] context, the business connotation has to come first and that any desire to be liked really has to take a back seat to fulfilling your obligations to the business.

And I’m not for a moment suggesting it gets any more palatable with experience, but it gets easier in terms of delivering them and accepting that they have to take place from time to time. And that actually, if handled [00:41:30] well and handled properly, can bring positive outcomes for everybody concerned, even those who are the subject of the difficult conversation, if you see what I mean.

I suppose if there were three takeaways I’d identify for our listeners, they may be as follows, leadership evolves with experience. She described graphically, didn’t she? How she moved in her own mind from a desire to be liked [00:42:00] to a desire to be respected. And that was the latter, was the real mark of a successful leader. Secondly, what came across was her thirst for knowledge. And in my experience, a good leader is curious. They’re always seeking to learn, and that came across with Ellie in spades that she would listen to all of those around her. She described her relationship [00:42:30] with both of her coaches, her previous coach, and now with Chris Read, the new coach, and how she soaked up the experience she could learn from them.

And then finally, it was very clear to me she had a plan. She had a plan for difficult conversations, the context in which she had to deliver them, how she would make a difficult conversation more acceptable to her listener. As you say, Jo, she [00:43:00] was focusing on how the message was received rather than how she wanted to deliver the message. And she was also really self-aware in terms of recognising that what she’s doing now was part of her plan for later life. Because she said she was aware that what she was doing now and the experiences she was encountering now would set her up for later life. And I think in one so young, that’s a real evidence of self-awareness and self-confidence [00:43:30] without in any way coming across as arrogant or over the top. It really was inspiring.

Joanne Radcliff: Absolutely. I couldn’t agree more. And I think the only thing I would add to that is just how refreshing it is to see somebody who’s prepared to be quite vulnerable and honest and actually own the mistakes that she makes to her team. And I’ve got no doubt, that’s why they all respect her in the way that they do.

Peter Jackson: So thanks for listening to this episode of 3:00 AM Conversations and you’ll hear from [00:44:00] us again in a month’s time, when we’ll be speaking to entrepreneur, author, businessman, Sacha Lord. Please rate, review and follow this podcast, and that way you’ll be able to spread the word. And if you’d like to find out more about how Hill Dickinson can help you, then head to our website or follow us on Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn. [00:44:30] See you next time.